Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: RyanY on July 18, 2011, 04:17:56 pm
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Got a board today and went to town. Had nice straight grain for most of the middle of the board and then waved off closer to the tips. Not worried about any grain violations because of the long length of the bow and straightness of the grain.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0455.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0456.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0457.jpg)
Pics showing the dimensions of the board.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0451.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0452.jpg)
First thing I do is draw the center line down the bow. Next I mark out the handle length with fades and mark mid limb. This bow in particular will be 80" with a 10" handle. To mark out the front view profile I split each limb into four equal sections so that more points can be drawn for accurate lines. This one is 2" at the fades tapering to 1.5" at mid limb and then tapers to 3/8" nocks. Because this bow will be for optimal speed I also draw out a general Eiffel tower shape to 1/4" nocks but leave them wide to be narrowed later. The Eiffel tower shape is done by first drawing a pyramid taper from mid limb to the nocks and then taking a second measurement at the half way point, making it slightly narrower and drawing lines from that to the nocks and mid limb. Sorry if this is confusing.
Here is the bow just cut out on the band saw with the handle and tip overlays ready for glue up.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0458.jpg)
A little about design: This bow is essentially a red oak version of the 80" pecan bow by Tim Baker in the TBBV4. Red oak, being less dense than pecan, needs to be made wider in order to take less set. I will measure the SG of the wood momentarily as I have a piece drying in the oven.
Please comment and criticize or ask any questions. Thanks for looking.
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Ok, I see how it is, ... so not only are you gonna whoop everybody at the red oak board bow contest, but your gonna rub it in everybodys face every step of the way with a buildalong,.. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Was it a dense board? I have noticed with red oak that the denser the board, the more brittle it is in tension. I have also noticed that the denser pieces tend to be lighter in color and less pink, and the pinker pieces tend to be lighter, but better in tension. At least for me anyway. Can't wait to see this demon of a bow shooting!
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Sweeeeeet Ryoon.....thanks for sharing your build,and doing it in this style. Something I personally think more people should be building this style. Why they don't boggles my mind. This style can be done with most woods and most lengths. Notice I said most. ;) I hope too also see a stiff 18" center in your tiller. Oh yes,I know how the tiller should look with this one. And this will be a good learning session for some newer guys. Thanks again ;)
Ps...nice board too. It almost goes flat sawn in the middle there. Should be good.
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I guess a little sarcasm goes a long way. This may or may not end up to be a fast bow. Hopefully I can do the design justice. I thought I'd do a build along for fun and hopefully someone will get something from it. I also hope get some excellent advice along the way. Secrets of design and bow making are meant to be shared for all to enjoy. Hopefully we'll learn a bit about making fast red oak board bows from this contest.
After a few hours in the oven and some microwave sessions the piece of red oak measured to be a bit less than 0.65 SG.
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Got the handle and tips glued on and brought the sides down to the lines. Front view is where I want it now for tillering but it is still full thickness along the length of the bow.
Side view
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0459.jpg)
Front view
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/DSCF0460.jpg)
I'm almost considering trapping the back but I need to make sure I won't be adding grain run offs. Thoughts?
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Excellent choice with regards to design. I don't think trapping the back will do much for the bow as the light tip mass will be doing most of the work anyway. Trapping the back could cause other issues and may not be worth the risk. Just my thoughts.
Nice work, you should do well with this design.
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Ok, I ain't ranting or even venting just let me say my piece and I'm gone.
Red oak is very very tough. I have a 55# @25" bow with grain that makes you dizzy to look at. Nine run-offs in 64". Yeah , I backed it with man made stuff but only after the first 200 were put thru it. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT RED OAK. Just do not heat treat it.
The design argumentation astounds me.Somebody is probably hard at work right now on a 12 foot bow with drastic siyahs that will blow everybody away except for the newbie kid that wants to shoot it. Build it don't talk it to death.
Hat's off to Ken75. He built it and that was it.
It just ain't that big of a deal fellers.
Lane
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Ok, I ain't ranting or even venting just let me say my piece and I'm gone.
Red oak is very very tough. I have a 55# @25" bow with grain that makes you dizzy to look at. Nine run-offs in 64". Yeah , I backed it with man made stuff but only after the first 200 were put thru it. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT RED OAK. Just do not heat treat it.
The design argumentation astounds me.Somebody is probably hard at work right now on a 12 foot bow with drastic siyahs that will blow everybody away except for the newbie kid that wants to shoot it. Build it don't talk it to death.
Hat's off to Ken75. He built it and that was it.
It just ain't that big of a deal fellers.
Yeah I get it I said something about siyahs and somehow pissed everybody off hey you know this isn't even the right thread if me talking about anything pisses you off for some reason why don't you PM me or something or better yet don't instead of whine about it in someone elses thread all randomly.
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Thanks for the input on your opinions on red oak guys.
gmc, Trapping the back makes the back of the bow do more work per mass thus reducing the mass of the bow, which is good in general but most important at the tips.
johnston, I believe that red oak can take some violation but I just want to be safe. Maybe the bow you made would have broken on the 201st shot without the backing. ;) Because of the draw weight limitation, I don't think anyone would make a 12 foot bow because, beyond a certain length, string mass eats up efficiency so there is no gain in performance. Also I don't think anyone could shoot it. Discussion is what drives us to build these designs. It's like philosophy before experimentation. I don't mean to show off with this thread. Even if only one person learns something from this it will have been worth it. I just thought it would be fun to do a build along of a bow that most people know about yet is rarely built. It's only a big deal if you feel it is.
Toomanyknots, I don't think you angered anyone and I know you didn't anger me. I love discussing design and really believe that it is where we learn best from each other. Don't let anything stop you from sharing your thoughts and ideas.
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I didn't realize siyah's were controversial.
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I'd rather talk siyas than effinglass!
Nice board, Ryoon. Picking the board is a huuuuge part of the process, but at least you know what grain you got coming, unlike a stave ordered from even the most scrupulous of dealers!
Good work everyone that is chipping in!
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Not causeing any tension, but I for one appreciate the build along...looking good keep em coming!
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I'm not ranting or even venting, but as a newbie I really, really appreciate the build along.
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Good Pics. I like build-a-longs. That looks like a really fast and efficient design.
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See if I made a bow like this, I'd have ta make 2, cause I wouldn't wanna give it away for nothing... ;D
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See if I made a bow like this, I'd have ta make 2, cause I wouldn't wanna give it away for nothing... ;D
That's pretty much what I'm doing ;)
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Thanks guys. I appreciate the comments. I won't be posting more till I can work on it during the weekend. Please feel free to comment on the design or ask any questions you may have.
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i love build alongs, ive seen ryoons work he can as well as others here teach me much, keep em coming.
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Let me now take you on a journey into murky waters. Trapping a bow. >:D After careful inspection of the growth ring orientation I decided to take a chance and trap the bow. The back at the handle was taken to 1 1/4" with a straight taper to 1" at mid limb which continued till the line could go no further due to the eiffel tower shaped outer limbs.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0285.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0286.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0287.jpg)
After trapping I scrape the sharp edges and sand them down as I normally do with the edges on the back of the bow. Still at the floor tillering stage, the bow lost quite a bit of strength from the trapping and, with some more scraping, was ready for the tiller tree.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0288.jpg)
You can see that the bow was bending straight out of the handle which is bad on such a long bow. I marked about 7-8" away from the handle so I knew not to scrape there.
One thing to keep in mind with red oak is how it reacts to being scraped. Because the growth rings are so porous they can create low spots on the bow if not careful and result in dangerous hinges. Sometimes blatant run outs on the belly are hard to avoid when scraping. Just make sure to be careful around the area and if you notice that it gets low, DON'T TOUCH IT!!! Here is an example of what you might see on the belly.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0289.jpg)
Here are a few pics of the tiller developing.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0290.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0291.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0292.jpg)
I'm pretty happy with the tiller at this point but there are a few things I'm worried about. Still a little too much bend near the handle, there is some unevenness between where I've been trying to get the limbs to work and the tips and inner limb which have been fairly untouched, and I'm getting pretty close to full draw. Hopefully I'll have enough time to work these things out. As always, please comment, criticize or ask any questions you may have. Thanks for looking. :)
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Looks like it'll be a great bow. To my barely trained eye it looks like a hinge starting on the left about a third up from the tip and a slight flat spot mid limb on the right.
It doesn't look to me like it's bending too much right out of the handle though but that is something you can probably observe better as you pull it on the tree than we can see from a still pic.
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I don't use a scraper, I'm a surform and rasp kind of guy, and red oak responds great to these two methods of wood removal. No the same with a recent maple bow I made, it resisted the surform and wanted to leave hills and valleys the whole way through.
If you're having trouble with using a scraper on your red oak board I suggest giving the surform a try.
ryoon, I'm very interested to see how your bow turns out. Have to scope out the competition >:D
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randman, I'd say you have a pretty good eye if you can see those. I think what you see as a hinge is actually caused by the increased thickness in the tip area. If you try and look at the back only the bend is smooth to the tip. As for the flat spot in the right limb, that area does nee more work. Thanks for the help. :)
Matt S, I may need to break out the rasp. The draw knife is always my first choice though but red oak definitely isn't the best for scraping. I'll hopefully finish it this weekend and get it shooting. Thanks. :D
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Thanx for doing this ryoon I'm still a noob at building bows iv only made 2 so far and my first a redoak started checking because I chose poorly on the board but it still lived and shoots so I'm going to learn alot from this challenge and your build along. I'm hoping to work on mine after work today iv chosen a hard one to build but I want to challenge myself ttyl
Sterling
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Very interesting build,i think i will make one from the hickory i just bought.
I think randman was tricked by the angle of the last pic,all but that one is straight on.
The last is slightly from right and together with the increased thickness it tricks the eye a bit.
/Mikael
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looks like its coming along nicely. I really like it when u guys pick up a piece of red oak and show us what can be done with it. I stopped worrying about finding some osage and yew to make a bow with because red oak makes a great bow.
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When long enough and wide enough (at the fades) it can make a very nice bow.
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I am watching with great interest. This may be old hat to some but I am a newbie! ;D I love these build alongs.
Thanks, Leonard
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Thanks guys. I'm not the best at doing very detailed build alongs but I know that they help me the most and it's nice when you can find one for a specific style bow.
So I made a string for it and at first brace I could see that one limb was slightly stronger than the other. Pulling it on the tree showed that both limbs had the same bend but differences in strength. A little scraping brought them to be equal but I ended up slightly lower than my goal of 45#@28". Here is the braced and full draw pics with final tiller.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0296.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0295.jpg)
All that was left is to narrow the tips and do some finishing work. With this style bow you want the tips to be as narrow as they can be with safety and bend ever so slightly. It can often only be seen looking down the limb at an angle at brace. Getting this slight bend means there is the least possible mass for the width. Because I could already see I had this bend fairly close to the tips, I only narrowed them for the last six inches using my belt sander. They are now exactly 1/4" tapering to 1/2", 6" from the tips.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0299.jpg)
Thats about all the technical stuff. Everything else will be shaping the handle, rounding edges and sanding the bow down for finishing. OH! Also the bow took very little set. Just unbraced set is slightly under 1 1/4" and relaxed set stands at slightly less than 3/4". Just shows how important design is for making a low stressed bow. I'll post pics of the finished bow once it's done. Thanks for following. Questions, comments, criticisms, all welcome. :)
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Tiller looks great! Any guesses how fast the bow will shoot? I'm thinking 155fps plus with a 12 strand dacron string and 450 grain arrows.
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wvarcher, I really have no idea how fast it'll be. After shooting it in and measuring the weight again it'll probably come in just under 40# after finishing. I was shooting a 500 grain arrow and it seemed quite fast even compared to my heavier bows. I'm thinking about going to gander mountain to test it out. Also we have to remember that speed will greatly depend on the shooting style and release. Even though it feels fast I think being under weight will kill me but oh well. The bow is a pleasure to shoot and will make whoever receives it happy (I hope). :)
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Nice looking bow, Ryoon. I like, "...but oh well...... and will make whoever receives it happy."
Mine is finished, completely. I will post pics soon. I need to get a mailing tube for it. I think I'm going to use some PVC pipe with end caps.
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So I finished sanding the bow, shot it in a bit more, and put an easy finish on it. Took some pictures of the bow and right when I take the full draw pic it snapped in my hand! Looking it over I'm not really sure what caused the break. There weren't any run offs at that point on the handle. I think I just made it too small and, although I couldn't feel it, it probably just had enough flex to cause the break.
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0301.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0302.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0308.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0309.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0305.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0303.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0306.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0307.jpg)
Me - UH OH!
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0310.jpg)
The break
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0311.jpg)
(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k455/ryoon4690/IMG_0312.jpg)
Well at least it happened to me and not anyone else. Unfortunately I don't know if I'll have time now to make a bow for the contest. If you guys have suggestions for fixing this one I'd like to hear them. The limbs are fine so I'd just have to figure out how to put them back together.
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Well crap. That sucks. How wide was your handle. Looks too narrow with not enough depth.
Not sure how to fix that one. Cut the whole handle part off by each fade and splice it and glue a thicker handle section on and don't make it as narrow and retiller. It might work and you wood have enough length I think because you wood have about a 68" bow. Good thing you made it 80" long. You might take another half inch of set but you can now prob make weight.
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i hate to see that happen.
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Too bad,i feel sorry for you and really wanted to see the performance of that one.
I hope you manage to splice it together somehow.
But as a wise man said "If you make some bows you break some bows"
/Mikael
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Finish the broken ends and round them up. Then use some round tubing and make it a take-down bow. I think it would still qualify for the red-oak build off. The working portions would still be traditional and, if I recall, the construction limitation I saw was that the bow could not be backed.
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If you could have filmed it in ultra slow motion, what it looks like to me Ryoon and is that first, your handle riser glue joint failed then with no longer a riser for strength, the handle section broke not being able to take the stress. That's really too bad.
You do have a lot of length there. Another way you might salvage is to redraw a handle at the fadeouts, W-splice them then glue on another riser section. Glue failures can be for many reasons. Too much clamp pressure (starving the glue joint), glue surfaces glassy smooth, lack of pre-sizing the gluing surfaces and/or the glue itself to name a few. I've had delamination problems with hickory backed board bows using TB-II. I am beginning to work with TB-III and am liking my results so far. I scraped my glue surfaces with a fine-toothed sawz-all blade then removed any loose, hanging small shavings prior to gluing. This method seems to give the glue a surface to grab and hold onto.
Or, you could start anew. I think you still have time enough to complete a second attempt. Don't get discouraged.
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Thanks for the advice guys. I'm thinking that I could splice in a new riser piece, thicken it up with some more layers of wood, and add a fiberglass wrap around the handle for extra strength. I might be able to make another one in time but I only have a few more weeks since I have band camp coming up and then classes start up right after.
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If you could really saturate the broken area with glue and attach a longer riser to take up some of the stress you might be in good shape...I just hate splices like that. I never can bring myself to trust them.
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3/4" board stock is not thick enough for a 50# bow that is longer than about 66", it will always pop off the handle or break, if the bow is designed to bend through the handle it would be fine. Steve
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If you could have filmed it in ultra slow motion, what it looks like to me Ryoon and is that first, your handle riser glue joint failed then with no longer a riser for strength, the handle section broke not being able to take the stress. That's really too bad.
You do have a lot of length there. Another way you might salvage is to redraw a handle at the fadeouts, W-splice them then glue on another riser section. Glue failures can be for many reasons. Too much clamp pressure (starving the glue joint), glue surfaces glassy smooth, lack of pre-sizing the gluing surfaces and/or the glue itself to name a few. I've had delamination problems with hickory backed board bows using TB-II. I am beginning to work with TB-III and am liking my results so far. I scraped my glue surfaces with a fine-toothed sawz-all blade then removed any loose, hanging small shavings prior to gluing. This method seems to give the glue a surface to grab and hold onto.
Or, you could start anew. I think you still have time enough to complete a second attempt. Don't get discouraged.
Modern glues work on a microscopic level, the smoothest surface you can make will work fine. There is no need to 'roughen up' the surfaces indeed it's a bad idea. If you were to look at a surface that had been roughened up with a saw blade under a microscope you would see a surface that is far from flat. Glue doesn't work as a gap filler, it is only flexible enough when it's very thin.