does a bow with a shelf perform better

[superdav95]

Mark. You mention that,

“ If your bow has a natural centershot handle then that should be the same as a cut in shelf in terms of paradox.”

I’m not sure I fully understand what you said.  It’s possible  I misunderstood what you’re saying here.  To my understanding a center shot bow will have less shooters paradox to overcome for good flight then a bow that is not center shot.   Are you saying that a natural center shot would be similar to a center shot cut in shelf?  To me that would line up the same.  It would all depend on the depth of the cut in shelf and how close to center shot it is that would affect arrow flight.  My experience has been that even center shot bows need arrows tuned but is less picky for arrows.  Some of my best shooting bows had the string favouring arrows rest side.  A shelf cut in can range in depth of the cut in.  A cut in shelf even a 1/8th” out from center shot will have a disadvantage over the center shot bow albeit slight.  A knuckle rest or cut in shelf covered in leather or hair rest that are the same distance away from center shot will shoot virtually that same as far as any measurable means are concerned.  The paradox would be the same in my estimation with the two.  I’m just trying to understand better and see if we are in the same page. 

Good discussion here

Cheers

[mmattockx]

I didnt know we were talking about olympic shooting,, isnt this a primitive site,,,

Their bows started out looking like our bows and evolved towards greater and greater levels of precision. That would indicate the way towards greater performance with our bows as well. I don't think you're going to get an example that satisfies your needs, the differences between no shelf/rest and a cut in shelf are just not going to be that great. At most you get easier tuning, more forgiving on a bad shot and maybe cleaner arrow flight.

To my understanding a center shot bow will have less shooters paradox to overcome for good flight then a bow that is not center shot.   Are you saying that a natural center shot would be similar to a center shot cut in shelf?  To me that would line up the same. 

Yes, that is what I meant. I think we are on the same page with this.


Mark

[bassman211]

Dave... build 2 bows as close to the same as you can. 1 with a deep shelf (1/4 inch) cut out ,and bare shaft arrow tune both bows. Then go to a different spine arrow both up ,or down. Then report your findings to us. I see were you shot a beautiful buck with great shot placement. Congrads. What ever you are doing it is working quite well for you. Post it here ,so the guys can see it.

[superdav95]

Thanks Bassman!

I did this with two 40lbs bows already.  I did t bare shaft tune them or anything but my results I spoke of in my initial reply to this thread.  The results were minimal in speed if any noticeable difference.  Both shot nice and straight with a 350 spine arrow at 400grains.  Arrows were carbons with standard feathers straight jig right wing feathers.  The only real difference was the silence in the shot with no shelf compared to the one with shelf.  Granted that being said the shelf cut version did quite up a bit more later after I put a strip of leather on arrow pass but still not as whisper quite as the No shelf bow.  Hope that helps. 

[bassman211]

Well you have proven to yourself  which you prefer.

[Selfbowman]

Brad the example is most of my records have beat the last record by not one percent  but closer to ten percent. My bows have 15 records total. Four personal the others by other people. I assure you Steve will tell you stiffer arrows will go farther assuming they come out of the bow clean. You also don’t tune a bow to an arrow by cutting the bow more center. You take mass off the arrow until it spines properly for the bow. Unless you never miss and don’t break arrows. I’m not that guy. 🤠the less an arrow has to paradox the more energy it will hold. This is a fact not an example. Build a bow without a shelf spine an arrow to clear the bow and have good flight then cut the shelf in it spine another arrow for the same bow that is stiffer and then shoot it.the arrows need to weigh the same.  If you don’t want to do all this then just take the mans word for it that has. Not trying to be smart here guys just been there done that. Most all of those records came from shooting arrows farther than Steve’s. He is a friend and has taught me a lot about flight. Arvin

[Tommy D]

Listening to a podcast by Dr Ed Ashby on tuning ultra extreme Forward of center arrows it was interesting to note that he said non-center shot (even on compound bows) becomes an advantage because you can get a higher percentage FOC if you use a lighter spine/ lighter arrow and therefore to tune it properly you must force it to bend more around the less center shot rest/ bow.

To take the initial question/ post further if one assumes in a hunting bow that being able to shoot higher FOC arrows for the same overall arrow weight gives a performance/ penetration advantage, then it would be fair to say non-center shot helps!

[Allyn T]

Would shooting a stiffer spine arrow but adding extra weight up front to change the dynamic spine recover from paradox faster compared to a lighter spine that flexes the same amount?

[Selfbowman]

Listening to a podcast by Dr Ed Ashby on tuning ultra extreme Forward of center arrows it was interesting to note that he said non-center shot (even on compound bows) becomes an advantage because you can get a higher percentage FOC if you use a lighter spine/ lighter arrow and therefore to tune it properly you must force it to bend more around the less center shot rest/ bow.

To take the initial question/ post further if one assumes in a hunting bow that being able to shoot higher FOC arrows for the same overall arrow weight gives a performance/ penetration advantage, then it would be fair to say non-center shot helps!

Just use a heavier arrow for more penetration. Bear, Pearson and a host of other bowyers cut the bows more center shot for a reason and the glass had nothing to do with it. Arvin

[bradsmith2010]

  great discussion and info,, Im listening ,, and thanks for all that posted and posting,, of couse I like the part about the non center shot helping penetration,, but I understand about rest helping arrows go further,,its very interesting,,and I enjoy the converstion, even in my little world..  
  thank you Selfbowman for your explanation and example,,
 

[bassman211]

I shoot winter league with guys that swear their bows are shooting a dead straight arrow until I strip a feather, and let them shoot a bare shaft. Most are glass bows with shelves, and not center cut .The archers are seasoned with good form. In a few cases their bare shaft was close to tune, but in most cases not so much.  Then we would make  the necessary adjustments to get them tuned properly. I am not a flight shooter like Arvin,or Badger, but I gage a well tuned bow for hunting by bare shafting. If it is done properly a feathered field point ,and broad head will impact in the same place as the bare shaft with peak energy. High foc  came about as a norm when guys started shooting light carbon arrows,and needed more hunting weight. The easiest way to do that was add more point weight. Not really necessary when hunting thin skinned animals, or are single bevel broad heads.. That has been proven for decades for guys who shot heavy wood arrows with lighter broad heads.

[Selfbowman]

I shoot winter league with guys that swear their bows are shooting a dead straight arrow until I strip a feather, and let them shoot a bare shaft. Most are glass bows with shelves, and not center cut .The archers are seasoned with good form. In a few cases their bare shaft was close to tune, but in most cases not so much.  Then we would make  the necessary adjustments to get them tuned properly. I am not a flight shooter like Arvin,or Badger, but I gage a well tuned bow for hunting by bare shafting. If it is done properly a feathered field point ,and broad head will impact in the same place as the bare shaft with peak energy. High foc  came about as a norm when guys started shooting light carbon arrows,and needed more hunting weight. The easiest way to do that was add more point weight. Not really necessary when hunting thin skinned animals, or are single bevel broad heads.. That has been proven for decades for guys who shot heavy wood arrows with lighter broad heads.


True!

[bradsmith2010]

im sure there are those that are learning and reading that are not posting,, and that is so great,, discussions like this I think are so helpful,, and contribute to better understanding of archery, which is really cool,,even old guys like me are still learning,,,

[Tommy D]

Just use a heavier arrow for more penetration. Bear, Pearson and a host of other bowyers cut the bows more center shot for a reason and the glass had nothing to do with it. Arvin

Not to be argumentative on this one but, it would be hard to argue that anyone has done more comprehensive studies on arrow penetration than Dr Ed Ashby - who has put a single minded life’s dedication to this subject and has thousands and thousands of pieces of data to back it up.

For what it’s worth he categorises arrow weight and forward of center arrow weight as 2 different penetration enhancing factors. So for a given arrow weight, and all else being equal, the more forward of center arrow penetrates better.

Here is a link to these factors and a discussion on them…

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/12-arrow-penetration-factors

Would shooting a stiffer spine arrow but adding extra weight up front to change the dynamic spine recover from paradox faster compared to a lighter spine that flexes the same amount?

Yes this is true … but when trying to push FOC up very very high, there comes a point were the arrow is simply not stiff enough and making a bow less center shot becomes an advantage.

Ashby also discusses somewhere that one of the problems with trying to get a high foc arrow to fly well out of a compound bow that is truly center shot and with a drop away rest is that you are not “telling the arrow” which way to flex … and so actually it can cause inconsistency and become hard to tune if it is too center shot.

Ashby discusses all the logic and how to tune a bow for FOC here … https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7rP8Xantd3Q …. and he covers this in particular for compound bows and the evolution of center shot in minute 35 onwards…

For what it’s worth, I have always enjoyed listening to the man, his experiences and his knowledge

[PaSteve]

Great topic. Tommy D, I totally agree about Ashby and high FOC for penetration on game. Out of some of my FG bows I shoot carbon arrows with up to 36%FOC and love the enhanced penetration factors. With that said what Arvin and others are referring to is flight archery.... Two totally different forms of archery.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is what works for one application probably isn't the best choice for a different application. If I want to learn about performance enhanced arrows for hunting I'll refer to thre Ashby studies....if I'm learning about flight shooting and bow performance I'll refer to Arvin & Badger. JMO