New heat treating method??

[bradsmith2010]

Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.

this if a direct quote from the site,,
when someone says their bows clearly out perfrom every other bow,, and then post numbers that do not reflect that,,
you are going to get some feed back about it,,

does the quote mean out perform every other bow in the world,,universe what,,
have the bows been setting world records or guys shooting them winning world shoots,, what???

its not unfair or negative to ask for some validation,,or if you gonna say that give some kind of proof,,

for me there is no validation I can see for that claim,, so I would be suspect of any other claims,, thats just my old guy reasoning,, once bit twice shy,,

  you just make a bow once in a while for fun, then the claims are pretty meaningless,,but if you are professional and bow making is part of your livelyhood,,then the claims carry alot of weight, and I think some might not understand that,,its a big deal to the guys that have devoted their lives to making the best bows possible,, thats a big part of why this thread has been so well participated in,,

 I know Steve has made bows that set world records,,and made bows for others that have set world records,, when these guys claim their bows outperform every other bow,  that would include bows like Steve makes and many other accomplished and proven bow makers,,as well,,
   it feels disrespectful, to discount the accomplishments of others,,

[sleek]

Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.

this if a direct quote from the site,,
when someone says their bows clearly out perfrom every other bow,, and then post numbers that do not reflect that,,
you are going to get some feed back about it,,

does the quote mean out perform every other bow in the world,,universe what,,
have the bows been setting world records or guys shooting them winning world shoots,, what???

its not unfair or negative to ask for some validation,,or if you gonna say that give some kind of proof,,

for me there is no validation I can see for that claim,, so I would be suspect of any other claims,, thats just my old guy reasoning,, once bit twice shy,,

if you just make a bow once in a while for fun, then the claims are pretty meaningless,,but if you are professional and bow making is part of your livelyhood,,then the claims carry alot of weight, and I think some might not understand that,,its a big deal to the guys that have devoted their lives to making the best bows possible,, thats a big part of why this thread has been so well participated in,,

Nicely put

[SLIMBOB]

I guess I see this little kerfuffle differently than Tattoo Dave and some others. I find none of this objectionable. These folks are making claims about their product, claiming its better than all the rest. They have every right to do that. It’s expected even. This forum, having maybe the highest concentration of World Class bowyers on the planet is going to be a pretty tough critic with regards to these claims. I personally have been entertained by this dust up. I am now more than curious to see the results and the critique that follows. This seems pretty civil thus far in my opinion. And interesting.

[Nasr]

Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.

this if a direct quote from the site,,
when someone says their bows clearly out perfrom every other bow,, and then post numbers that do not reflect that,,
you are going to get some feed back about it,,

does the quote mean out perform every other bow in the world,,universe what,,
have the bows been setting world records or guys shooting them winning world shoots,, what???

its not unfair or negative to ask for some validation,,or if you gonna say that give some kind of proof,,

for me there is no validation I can see for that claim,, so I would be suspect of any other claims,, thats just my old guy reasoning,, once bit twice shy,,

  you just make a bow once in a while for fun, then the claims are pretty meaningless,,but if you are professional and bow making is part of your livelyhood,,then the claims carry alot of weight, and I think some might not understand that,,its a big deal to the guys that have devoted their lives to making the best bows possible,, thats a big part of why this thread has been so well participated in,,

 I know Steve has made bows that set world records,,and made bows for others that have set world records,, when these guys claim their bows outperform every other bow,  that would include bows like Steve makes and many other accomplished and proven bow makers,,as well,,
   it feels disrespectful, to discount the accomplishments of others,,

I question your reading comprehension it never says my bows are better then all other bows. How dare you I have Native American blood running through my veins. The Native American part of me wrote that part but the other part of me doesn't understand where you got it from so you should buy my dvd. 

All seriousness you hit the nail on the head.

[Badger]

   This thread sure did take on a life of its own while I was gone. I am also skeptical but there is no way I can form any kind of opinion until I see the video. Being involved in flight shooting if he does have something new I am all ears. Even a slight improvement that returns an additional 5 fps has to be considered huge.

Do the listed results make you believe they are 5fps faster?

   Not saying I believe it but it did peek my interest. He is showing simple designs that won't normally hit 180 fps. Very few self bows will hit that speed unless they are made pretty much perfectly. I have an occasional self bow to hit that speed but not common place unless I go to a little more aggressive design which I prefer simple reflex designs. I have been wondering for some time now if we could take the heat treat process a step further of if there is more we could learn about it.

[Badger]

   I am a firm believer that bow making is just like any other technology, we stand on each others shoulders and keep reaching higher. You might take something from me and then improve on it, someone else will take that from you and improve on that. At some point gains become much harder and even small gains are much appreciated.

[Deerhunter21]

Badger, remember that it never gave us the weight of the arrow or the gpp

[Badger]

Badger, remember that it never gave us the weight of the arrow or the gpp

  I thought he said 10 grains but not really sure now? that does make a substantial difference.

[bradsmith2010]

says  all  bows shot with 520 grain arrow
60# at 28 inches 183 fps with 520 arrow,,
that would put it in the 170s with 600 grain arrow,, right,,
 ,, so thats 8.7 gpp ?

there are alot of guys making self bows,, that will shoot 170's,, and 180's with a lighter arrow,,

[sleek]

 bows were tested with the same 520 grain river cane arrow and shot with the aid of a shooting table to eliminate the human influence. All tests were documented on video with three participants and will be part of an upcoming video about making the fire hardened bow.

56” - Take down Big Horn Recurve-fiberglass 56 lbs at 28” draw 177 fps avg.66” - Sky Long Bow-Designed by Earl Hoyt, Jr. 60 lbs at 28” draw 178.5fps avg. Deflex Reflex Fiberglass64” - Osage Self Bow-1.5” Reflex 57 lbs at 28” draw 174.5 fps avg.64” - Raw Hickory Self Bow- 1.5 Deflex 59 lbs at 28” draw 162.4 fps avg.62” - Shannon’s Lightening Bolt-1” Reflex 60 lbs at 28” draw 182 fps avg. (Self Bow)62” - Shannon’s Smokin’ Sudbury-2” Reflex 54 lbs at 28” draw 177.6 fps avg (Self Bow)62” - Shannon’s Sinew Lightening Bolt-3” Reflex 52 lbs at 28” draw 175 fps avg.

Even though all Fire Dancer Bows, pound per pound, clearly out perform every other bow, they were not built to be racing bows but instead designed to be somewhat short, durable, stable, smooth drawing and accurate hunting bows.

[sleek]

^ All that, shows they are dishonest in their conclusion,  or simply dont know what they are talking about. Never mind that they stated heat will get rid of hand shock. 

[scp]

One simple way to test with one 520 grain arrow is to pull the bows to 52 pounds only, even though that might not be optimal for each bow. That's what I sometimes do, in my case just with one 400 grain arrow, because most of my bows are made for 40 pound target draw weight.

We need to distinguish between the production bows on sale from the bows mad for record breaking. I rarely see anyone guarantying their bows FPS. In the hands of experienced shooters like Badger, their bows might perform much better.

Let's just remember that the target audience of the marketing is not the professional bowyers here but just regular primitive bow enthusiasts. We really don't want to discourage any sincere bow makers for their hyperbole. We need to remember how dogmatic the authors of old archery books were. We are not being forced to be deceived. There is no need for us to go out of our way to disparage fellow bowyers just for their exaggeration.

[sleek]

62” - Shannon’s Sinew Lightening Bolt-3” Reflex 52 lbs at 28” draw 175 fps avg.

This is the only example of 10 gpp and its average performance


64” - Raw Hickory Self Bow- 1.5 Deflex 59 lbs at 28” draw 162.4 fps avg.

Then there is this little gem. That's not anything to brag about. darn near 60 pound bow, hitting 162 fps with arrow 80 grains too light.

With these numbers,  I am to believe these are the best bows out there, and this is better than osage?  How fast are their bows without the fire treatment?
Not to mention,  that's with a shooting machine.  Gosh
...


Now, again,  they may not know how to make a fast bow, but if they can take a slow bow and make it average,  I'm still interested in how they do it.

[NicAzana]

sleek, I think the raw hickory bow means that one is not heat treated.

[sleek]

sleek, I think the raw hickory bow means that one is not heat treated.

You may have a point there