New heat treating method??

[sleek]

well Sleek one bow shot 182 I think,, but that was a 60# bow with 520 grain arrow,, so that would put it in the 170's,,10 gpp,,,

I have hit 200 fps with a 350 grain arrow from a 50 pound osage before. I had fun, but the number was average performance for a bow  10gpp would have been 170s. That bow was a super short bow also... A longer bow would have gotten me better performance.  That was years ago also, I'd probably do better now.

[bassman]

153 replies, and 3017 views, and still going strong. Good thread.

[Nasr]

 Seems like they just wanted to be upset. I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there. Instead of giving information to support his claims he talked about his feelings and bragged about patents. Then he did the very thing his friend was supposedly hurt by and attacked peoples reading comprehension skills. Yet he himself doesn't seem to know what is on his website. What was the point of you bringing up your ancestry exactly?  Was that suppose to validate your claims or were you trying to toot your own horn? Maybe you are writing an autobiography and you are trying to set that up? You dont actually have to answer any of those cause no one is really interested just put out your dvd already I am sure everyone is eager to know from the last true bowyer left on the planet how to make bows properly.

[sleek]

Seems like they just wanted to be upset. I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there. Instead of giving information to support his claims he talked about his feelings and bragged about patents. Then he did the very thing his friend was supposedly hurt by and attacked peoples reading comprehension skills. Yet he himself doesn't seem to know what is on his website. What was the point of you bringing up your ancestry exactly?  Was that suppose to validate your claims or were you trying to toot your own horn? Maybe you are writing an autobiography and you are trying to set that up? You dont actually have to answer any of those cause no one is really interested just put out your dvd already I am sure everyone is eager to know from the last true bowyer left on the planet how to make bows properly.

Apparently whatever school he went to for his masters degree didnt teach him how to make a logical point or make a logical argument.  I'd like to have him reply here a few more times to answer for himself.  Maybe he could string together a coherent conversation, maybe not, but it would be interesting to watch him try.

I was all for him, you can look back at every comment I made, I never once said he has nothing and was optimistically sceptical about the dvd. Still kinda am. Billy wouldn't risk his reputation on nonsense, and as was said earlier by another forum member,  Billy has been around a long time, he should know better. So, like I said, I'd like to hold off criticism of the dvd until I see it. This Shannon character however, isn't the best PR guy however, I wont hire him for promotion of my but of literature I'm working on. ( See what I did there? Shameless plug for my future wonderful self. )

[Nasr]

Seems like they just wanted to be upset. I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there. Instead of giving information to support his claims he talked about his feelings and bragged about patents. Then he did the very thing his friend was supposedly hurt by and attacked peoples reading comprehension skills. Yet he himself doesn't seem to know what is on his website. What was the point of you bringing up your ancestry exactly?  Was that suppose to validate your claims or were you trying to toot your own horn? Maybe you are writing an autobiography and you are trying to set that up? You dont actually have to answer any of those cause no one is really interested just put out your dvd already I am sure everyone is eager to know from the last true bowyer left on the planet how to make bows properly.

Apparently whatever school he went to for his masters degree didnt teach him how to make a logical point or make a logical argument.  I'd like to have him reply here a few more times to answer for himself.  Maybe he could string together a coherent conversation, maybe not, but it would be interesting to watch him try.

I was all for him, you can look back at every comment I made, I never once said he has nothing and was optimistically sceptical about the dvd. Still kinda am. Billy wouldn't risk his reputation on nonsense, and as was said earlier by another forum member,  Billy has been around a long time, he should know better. So, like I said, I'd like to hold off criticism of the dvd until I see it. This Shannon character however, isn't the best PR guy however, I wont hire him for promotion of my but of literature I'm working on. ( See what I did there? Shameless plug for my future wonderful self. )

 Most of us were not against him and were skeptical but open to be wrong the guy just wants everyone to clap his hands and go along with what he says. This is a forum the point of this is to discuss results, share work and pose questions to others. I honestly didn't and still dont believe he has anything but I am human I can be wrong and that was my stance from the beginning. Some of us asked for proof and all he had to do is either show something or refrain without crying about us even suggesting he back up a claim. Instead he chose to do the latter. 

[scp]

I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there.

Actually I'm quite impressed. I have made several dozen self bows and my several best performers shoot around 165 fps on a good day. And that is also the speed I get with beat-up fiberglass bows I buy used and abuse for comparison. I think the performance chart itself is a kind of proof that he knows how to make bows pretty well.

I seldom bother to apply finish on my bows. Most of them are not even sanded. Come to think of it, I have never properly heat treated any of them. I just use the heat treatment as a tillering aid to prevent hinges. I think it's about time for me to learn how to heat treat my bows properly.

Frankly anyone who can make wood self-bows that shoot 175 to 180 fps at will is an accomplished bowyer. I would listen to what he has to say.

[sleek]

I'd really like to know, in a quantifiable way,  how much a problem moisture is for white wood bows. As Shannon keeps stating how big a problem it is, and he has solved it with his unique, not copying or inspired by Marc at all, heat treat method.You would assume he has some easily identified result of moisture inhibiting white wood bows, along with a direct comparison to his heat treat method.

So from the knowledge base here, I'd ask, who can identify moisture problems with their white wood bows? I only have made elm and black locust bows for white wood, never had a moisture problem from normal atmosphere conditions.

[sleek]

Let's discus the information on his site.

From this image you see there is nowhere enough information on his bows, and the arrows used, to glean any useful information or come to a conclusion. Is he being intentionally dishonest  or just not familiar with the information needed to be provided to be useful to us? Either way, his site doesnt provide any information useful to back up any claim he has made.

No arrow weight info, no wood identification other than the one osage and one hickory bow, which white wood is supposed to outshoot the osage according to him, yet the other numbers dont show consistent performance above osage.

[sleek]

This will be my fourth and last post here.  Obviously, some of you cannot read very well or understand what you are reading.  I stand on every word on my website.  I have never said I invented fire hardening.  A "unique fire hardening method?"  Yes.  A method that will "revolutionize" how white wood bows are made?   The three of us think so and do not think for one minute that we have not read everything that is available to the public.  Did I know of Marc's methods - absolutely.  Was I using any of Marc's methods when I began to realize something different?  Absolutely Not!  I, like Thad, am part Native American, 21%.  I know the names and burial sites of my ancestors who suffered the mistreatment and horrors of the Trail of Tears.  When I stumbled upon my findings, I was practicing the arts of my ancestors and Not Marc's!  My people were applying heat to bows long before Marc came on the scene and I was very well aware of that before I ever knew Marc existed.  But yet, I still acknowledged modern heat treatment on my website and will do so on my DVD.  The methodology I use and the bows I make have no connection to modern heat treatment but is more akin to the ancient ways.  My methodology has evolved over the last three years and will probably continue to do so and is currently similar to what many here have probably done; however, the details of the method and the outcomes are drastically different from anything we have ever heard on this board or anywhere else.  The greatest benefit of what I am doing is that moisture management becomes obsolete.  White wood bows made with my method will not have anymore moisture concerns than Osage.  I can spot the exact same Osage bow five (5) pounds and still out shoot it easily with much less hand shock.
While it seems that some here may be used to people referring to them as thieves, liars and charlatans, we are not.
Sleek and others, you all need to stay in your lane on the marketing.   I majored in Marketing and Economics and I have five (5) patents.  I have very successfully developed, pioneered and marketed several products nationally and internationally all the way to Walmart and the US Government.  And you are trying to tell me about marketing?  You are so far out of your league, you do not have a clue where the ball field is.  The most I have seen from you is a YouTube with a dozen or so viewers.  Great stuff.
There are some extremely talented bowyers on this board, wish I was as good as them, but many of you should not flatter yourselves so much just because you are a part of this little gang.  You are not nearly as good as you think you are. We had originally hoped to come to this board with what we brought to the table and be part of learning everything there is to know about this. I do not claim to know all the answers to the many questions there will be. Some on this board have been receptive and cordial and we appreciate it.  Considering the attitudes of many of you though, I do not have the appetite and have other things to do and think about like a hurricane at this moment.  Badger, I welcome and hope you will reach out to me.  What Thad said. No need to reply.  Not interested. Gone for good.

Wait hold on, I just read what you wrote  again
 You state that because we dont agree with you  our reading comprehension is faulty? And how is that supposed to motivate me to want your information?

As for you feeling like we are stating you claimed to invent fire hardening... We aren't saying that. You are, by omission of precious details. You say you use heat to make bows better, buy your dvd to see how! Well duh, we got that figured out already, thank you Marc for putting forth effort to show how and why heat works, the science behind it, etc... Even if he didnt invent it himself, he gave us understanding of it. Your ad gives no understanding of your product. Bad advertising.  If it were GOOD advertising, you would be in such a defensive posture right now would you?

You claim you are native and therefore we should value your opinion more? Hell, I am Scott Irish and Native, Does that mean I can drink, fight and shoot good? Your DNA doesnt make you good at something,  if it did, I'd be a rocket surgeon   as my grandfather worked on the Apollo project. Trail of tears had nothing to do with your DVD and your attempt to connect the two is disgraceful and disingenuous.  You have lost any Intellectual argument when you try to win an argument with emotion rather than logic. So blatant and obvious at that. And I am supposed to think you are smart?  Then you state you were following the ways of your people, not Marc's. That makes it YOURS and not Marc's? That gives you rights to it more than him? 21 % native... so proud. Hey, high five to your mom and dad for copulating,  you had nothing to do with it, so why are you claiming it to establish your pathos? More like 21% naive.

3 years of methodology... and you say we aren't as good as you. I may have 3 years of bow building if you add every minute I spent making and studying it over the last 9 years. I'm not new, and dont toot my own horn, though I do try to get recognition for accomplishments.... by actually accomplishing them.

All I asked for validation of your claims was some some FPS. You respond with attacking an early first attempt I made at you tube? Seriously? Hell, I cant post images on here well, modern tech ain't my thing, yet  because I'm deficant there, that means my ill reception of your whining and bad advertising is invalid? If that's the case, IF I HAD liked your advertising and sympathized with your plight here, it would be an equally invalid a point of view for the same reasons you state that it isn't valid.  You boxed yourself in intellectually there. Aside from that, I'm not the guy who claims to have a master's degree in advertising,  or who's responsibility it is to actually do the advertising.  That's yours and you sucked. Plain and simple. Be glad I'm polite enough to be honest. That's rare these days. Appreciate me.

You state white wood bows can be built without the hand shock of osage. Pardner, my osage doesnt have handshock. That went away when Lebhuntfish, who is less experienced than I am, TAUGHT me through logical explanation ( see, I can learn from younger knowledge) how to time my limbs. I'm a better bowyer for it and appreciate him. Point is, if you have hand shock, you need to build better bows, not better heat treat. Heat wont fix handshock, and moisten doesnt cause it. I can build a green wood bow fresh cut that has no handshock, wont shoot fast, but wont have any shock. Your arguments  give away you lack of ability and knowledge in bow making. I'm not nocking you for having trouble with certain things, just saying the obvious here. It's like putting finish on a bow, you want to present it, but only when you polish it do you discover the flaws in your work. Be grateful, improve, and move on.
There should be no difference in performance between osage and any suitable white wood, for a bow. If there is, you didnt do your job well.

Also, learn to present an argument better, you are very deficient in that skill set as well.

Well sleek, a bit blunt but yes i agree. I said that im going to save my questions but still this is true. Im excited to see if we will learn anything from the dvd  or if its a dud. Maybe it will be good to explain the basics. You change your tactics for what your selling, even if its the same information. You could sell it saying it could add on to what we know, you could sell it as something new or as your view on the topic. But it needs to fit what your selling.

My reply is as blunt as his claims, and I dont want the chance of being misunderstood.

Maybe he has something... other than a bad attitude and poor advertising skills, maybe if I use his method I can break out of fairly consistently 180s fps, and hit 190s often. I dont know. I just know he needs to let Billy do the talking... cause doesn't have that tallent.

[sleek]

I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there.

Actually I'm quite impressed. I have made several dozen self bows and my several best performers shoot around 165 fps on a good day. And that is also the speed I get with beat-up fiberglass bows I buy used and abuse for comparison. I think the performance chart itself is a kind of proof that he knows how to make bows pretty well.

I seldom bother to apply finish on my bows. Most of them are not even sanded. Come to think of it, I have never properly heat treated any of them. I just use the heat treatment as a tillering aid to prevent hinges. I think it's about time for me to learn how to heat treat my bows properly.

Frankly anyone who can make wood self-bows that shoot 175 to 180 fps at will is an accomplished bowyer. I would listen to what he has to say.

Anymore, I use heat for spot treatment of my bows to even out the tiller. It's a good technique. 

He didnt say he can hit those numbers on every bow every time. I'd imagine he is posting his top performers and not mentioning the more sluggish bows.

[Deerhunter21]

What he could have done is compared his best white wood with his worst osage but i dont think that. Its not easy to get an only reflexed bow up there. But still, he could have chosen any bow to compare it to. Then he could have done the opposite, worst white  wood with best osage. I would say thats out of the question because i would say with his claims that hes made, hes probably made a osage bow faster than that. That being said that says he wasnt comparing his best with his best, he was comparing his ok with his best (because he wouldnt show an ok bow when hes trying to sell it). But also its just a simple reflexed design. So it could have been unbiased because we know that white woods can outpreform osage when used well. Then theres arrow weight which we already know. String weight, tip overlays, areas that are unpredictable and need to be left thick, and the wood being unpredictable. I would say that that fills the fps gap. But lets say all parts that could be controlled are (which i hope they are) wood can just be unpredictable, not to say that the tiller could be off just a little bit (which can happen and is understandable).

Trying to be as un biased as i can.

[Nasr]

I just Checked performance on there website nothing extraordinary there.

Actually I'm quite impressed. I have made several dozen self bows and my several best performers shoot around 165 fps on a good day. And that is also the speed I get with beat-up fiberglass bows I buy used and abuse for comparison. I think the performance chart itself is a kind of proof that he knows how to make bows pretty well.

I seldom bother to apply finish on my bows. Most of them are not even sanded. Come to think of it, I have never properly heat treated any of them. I just use the heat treatment as a tillering aid to prevent hinges. I think it's about time for me to learn how to heat treat my bows properly.

Frankly anyone who can make wood self-bows that shoot 175 to 180 fps at will is an accomplished bowyer. I would listen to what he has to say.

Those numbers are not 10gpp and those numbers are being done by the good folks here on PA and no dvd is required. His claim is his bows are better then everyone else’s. Big claim but numbers don’t show it.

[JW_Halverson]

Looks like someone is hurt that they were not hailed as conquering heroes by us ignorant savages.

I looked at the marketing. All I got was my spidey sense tingling and my bullshit meter pegged out past the redline.  Marketing ain't nothing but the fine art of "alt facts".  The classic Tom Waits song "Step Right Up" keeps playing in the back of my head.  Google it or check it out on Youtube if you have never heard it! Seriously. Summarizes this whole thread.

[sleek]

How I imagine he feels right now

[Marc St Louis]

Perhaps it was as someone said, they were targeting the newbies that use YouTube for all their information and my going on there and posting what I did sort of poisoned the well so to speak and they are pissed....just guessing here.