String angle

[George Tsoukalas]

No, PatM, that is not what I was trying to do. I was trying to help people understand what string angle is. Jawge

[George Tsoukalas]

Gfugal, if I take the measurement of a right triangle at different points will it not still be 90 degrees? I can take that measurement along any point and it will still be 90 degrees. Jawge

[gfugal]

Gfugal, if I take the measurement of a right triangle at different points will it not still be 90 degrees? I can take that measurement along any point and it will still be 90 degrees. Jawge

If you measure the right triangle from B to A or A to B yes it will be 90°. it doesn't matter where you start per se. But that's not what I mean by changing the reference point. It's a matter of terminology.  By moving the reference point you move the corner of the triangle. The right triangle is no longer a right triangle therefor it is a different angle.

[gfugal]

Pat, I don't know what a retro tip is. Never heard of it. Static recurve?

If there is a point where the string contacts the limb. String angle can be measured from there at full draw...from limb to string.

Jawge

 I thought you had the BB series.

Just cause you have it, or have read it, or have even written some of it doesn't mean we will remember every detail. Why not just tell us what a retro tip is instead of holding us to a difficult standard and sending us on a time-wasting goose chase searching through hundreds of pages of text. If you want us to read it, then at least give us a volume and pg number.

[George Tsoukalas]

g, I looked at your measurements too quickly in the last photo. Your first measurement  is string angle. Don't know what the others are or don't know why they were brought up. LOL.
Oh and if you move the corner you still have a right angle. If you just move the corner point you don't have an angle.
Of course, if you change the way you measure you introduce another variable  when there is no need to do so.
When we change definitions it confuses people. For the past 3 decades string angle has been measured from limb tip to string.
Jawge

[gfugal]

g, I looked at your measurements too quickly in the last photo. Your first measurement  is string angle. Don't know what the others are or don't know why they were brought up. LOL.

By first one you mean the blue angle or the 3rd reference point, correct (the one that's about 135°)? I don't know why I brought up the verticle reference point other than I could potentially see it being used. The 1st reference point is the one that PatM was having DC change too and he referenced that there was a diagram in the TBB that used that reference point. Springbuck and Badger seemed to know what he was referring to and talked about the average leverage it had on the whole limb, and how Tim Baker thought this "net" reference point was probably more important. Personally, I'm with you and think string angle should be in reference to the tip of the limb to string.

[gfugal]

Oh and if you move the corner you still have a right angle. If you just move the corner point you don't have an angle.

haha good catch. I was actually thinking of moving the bottom right point of a right triangle vertically and not horizontally. If it was any other triangle but a right triangle any movement at all would change it, whereas the right triangle was the exception. But I still think my point is valid. We aren't talking about measuring it from a different side, but changing what we are measuring altogether.

When we change definitions it confuses people. For the past 3 decades string angle has been measured from limb tip to string.
Jawge

see that's the thing. There doesn't seem to be a consensus on this thread what string angle is. Therefore I thought I would illustrate the potential differences in definitions we might have so we can come to an agreement and move on to what really matters: what the effect this string angle has on the bow.

[willie]

torque   

[PatM]

Pat, I don't know what a retro tip is. Never heard of it. Static recurve?

If there is a point where the string contacts the limb. String angle can be measured from there at full draw...from limb to string.

Jawge

 I thought you had the BB series.

Just cause you have it, or have read it, or have even written some of it doesn't mean we will remember every detail. Why not just tell us what a retro tip is instead of holding us to a difficult standard and sending us on a time-wasting goose chase searching through hundreds of pages of text. If you want us to read it, then at least give us a volume and pg number.

  You're reading too much into the statement. I thought George had read them.   
 If you are really interested you'll look for it yourself and not demand being spoon fed.
  In any event it's pretty self-explanatory in the context of this discussion. Tips set back in some manner. 

Trying to avoid you guys launching into a siyah versus recurve argument and just lumping them all together.

[PatM]

g, I looked at your measurements too quickly in the last photo. Your first measurement  is string angle. Don't know what the others are or don't know why they were brought up. LOL.

By first one you mean the blue angle or the 3rd reference point, correct (the one that's about 135°)? I don't know why I brought up the verticle reference point other than I could potentially see it being used. The 1st reference point is the one that PatM was having DC change too and he referenced that there was a diagram in the TBB that used that reference point. Springbuck and Badger seemed to know what he was referring to and talked about the average leverage it had on the whole limb, and how Tim Baker thought this "net" reference point was probably more important. Personally, I'm with you and think string angle should be in reference to the tip of the limb to string.

   An average represents it better though.  If you had a straight limbed bow drawn to the max the string angle would be 80 degrees.  A bow with a siyah retroflexed so that the string barely lifts from the  angle at full draw shouldn't be said to have a string angle of 2 degrees.
  So the leverage lets you bend the limb as if it's at 95 degrees and feel like it's only say an 80 degree string angle.

[PatM]

PatM, I don't understand what you think I said I am conflicted about.
I measure string angle from limb tip or point of contact to string.
Yes, I have the TBB's..all of them. In fact one of my bows is featured  in #4.
Jawge

  Are you following the recurve variation?  What would you say the string angle is of the recurve diagram?

[gfugal]

Pat, I don't know what a retro tip is. Never heard of it. Static recurve?

If there is a point where the string contacts the limb. String angle can be measured from there at full draw...from limb to string.

Jawge

 I thought you had the BB series.

Just cause you have it, or have read it, or have even written some of it doesn't mean we will remember every detail. Why not just tell us what a retro tip is instead of holding us to a difficult standard and sending us on a time-wasting goose chase searching through hundreds of pages of text. If you want us to read it, then at least give us a volume and pg number.

  You're reading too much into the statement. I thought George had read them.   
 If you are really interested you'll look for it yourself and not demand being spoon fed.
  In any event it's pretty self-explanatory in the context of this discussion. Tips set back in some manner. 

Trying to avoid you guys launching into a siyah versus recurve argument and just lumping them all together.

So basically any tip that is behind the limb such as a recurve or siyah is a retro tip? If so that was easy enough to explain without much effort. But I'll keep an eye out for it when I'm reading, but I don't have the time or desire to rummage through pages of text now.

[George Tsoukalas]

Ah, siyahs, PatM. Why didn't you say so in the first place. LOL. Definitions.
Of course, I've read them.

g, I was talking about the measurement closest to the tip.

Sorry. Loosing steam. Maybe check back in the AM.

Jawge

[PatM]

I didn't say  siyah because a lot of the diagrams are showing tips inclined back and clearly changing string angle.

 People still have this weird thought that a siyah is somehow different from a one piece tip.  It seems they still do.

 Tim Baker introduced the retroflexed tip term I think to create a generic term for all the types.

  So despite all of this nobody seems to be willing to actually come up with a string angle for the recurve in the diagram.

[gfugal]

  So despite all of this nobody seems to be willing to actually come up with a string angle for the recurve in the diagram.

Is that the correct diagram you're looking for? I need pull up my image measuring app to get the actual angles but I don't think that's what you're looking for. If that's incorrect you should enlighten us with your own drawing.