Hand thrown spear better than the Atlatl?

[Ruddy Darter]

I would imagine the atlatl as a long range weapon of war they would be most effective, on mass a volley would be devastating I would imagine, and something like the English warbow, and a lot easier to make the darts and shoot for a period of time compared to spear or javelin. You'd probably have to strength train a fair bit to throw spears constantly.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia,

Grande do Norte in mid-17th-century Brazil. Anthropologist Harald Prins offers the following description:

"The atlatl, as used by these Tarairiu warriors, was unique in shape. About 88 cm (35 in) long and 3 to 4.5 cm (1 1⁄4 to 1 3⁄4 in) wide, this spear thrower was a tapering piece of wood carved of brown hard-wood. Well-polished, it was shaped with a semi-circular outer half and had a deep groove hollowed out to receive the end of the javelin, which could be engaged by a horizontal wooden peg or spur lashed with a cotton thread to the proximal and narrower end of the throwing board, where a few scarlet parrot feathers were tied for decoration. [Their] darts or javelins… were probably made of a two-meter long wooden cane with a stone or long and serrated hard-wood point, sometimes tipped with poison. Equipped with their uniquely grooved atlatl, they could hurl their long darts from a great distance with accuracy, speed, and such deadly force that these easily pierced through the protective armor of the Portuguese or any other enemy.".[11]

And I would of thought if you could hunt efficiently with the atlatl you were also trained and well practiced for war, perhaps a good reason to do so?

[Josh B]

That's a guarantee that you can't back up.  High school javelin throwers are not throwing much over a couple hundred feet, certainly less than 250'.  They are also not throwing at a target.  Accuracy isn't even a consideration.  As far as ancient Roman javelin throwers go, they achieved their distance with the aid of a leather thong wound around the javelin which acted much the way an atlatl handle does in increasing the force of the cast.  You also seem to be confusing effective range with maximum cast range.  As Pappy says with his archery equipment, his maximum effective range is 20yds.  Do you really think he couldn't cast an arrow farther than that if he was flight shooting with the same equipment?   True the javelin carries more force at the same distance as an atlatl dart would due to mass.  So far that's the only valid point you've made.  As far as just maximum cast goes, I can chuck a dart over a 100 yds and I'm not that good.  You aren't going to find anybody  that can throw a javelin that far even with the use of a thong.  Josh

[Pat B]

What would a typical hunting atlatl dart with a stone head weigh? I would think way more than an arrow and arrows penetrate well with a sharp head.

[Onebowonder]

I guarantee you a high school javelin thrower can throw a heavier javelin than an atlatl dart for farther distance and with more accuracy than an atlatlist.

Evidence please?

The maximum hunting range for the atlatl appears to be 20-30 yards, ancient Romans threw spears for twice that distance. At that range an atlatl dart wouldn't even have the kinetic energy to break skin. The atlatl is essentially a scam.

Really?  ...a scam?  Were the deer, buffalo, mammoths, and other Mega Fauna killed by this tool over the millenia in on the fraud?

I realize you cannot use the tool effectively, but that's a rather lonely and VERY anecdotal data point.  Do you have some testing or algorithmic calculation somewhere that has made you so certain that what you can't do cannot be done by anyone?  I mean seriously, there are thousands of years of historical relationship to this weapon.  You may be as old as 90 or 95 at the long end of presumption, - - - are you sure you know what you are attempting to assert here?

All an atlatl does is extend the length of the thrower's arm.  The calculations for how that changes the force delivered to the throw is not purely trivial, ...but it's also not rocket science!  (...though ironically, it is very like the science required to do rocketry, and may in fact have been human kind's first step into the applied science of projectile science and mathematics.)

I thought this was a pretty good start into some of the evidence you seem to desire.  Have a look...

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm

OneBow

[John32r]

Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.

[JW_Halverson]

Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.

If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?

Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead.  They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!

[Josh B]

Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.

Ooookaay.....that sort of logic sounds all too familiar.  You wouldn't happen to be a teenager would you John?   Josh

[John32r]

Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.

If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?

Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead.  They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!

Hand thrown or thrusted spears are at least 500,000 years old (much older if you count Chimpanzees) and lasted until the 1800s even among civilized nations.

Oldest evidence for atlatl is ~20,000 years old, enjoyed maybe 10,000 years of existence alongside the spear, and went out of style in most parts of the world by the holocene.


Dead? You betcha. It didn't work.

[JW_Halverson]

Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.

If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?

Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead.  They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!

Hand thrown or thrusted spears are at least 500,000 years old (much older if you count Chimpanzees) and lasted until the 1800s even among civilized nations.

Oldest evidence for atlatl is ~20,000 years old, enjoyed maybe 10,000 years of existence alongside the spear, and went out of style in most parts of the world by the holocene.


Dead? You betcha. It didn't work.

Ten thousand years of not working?

[John32r]

Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.

If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?

Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead.  They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!

Hand thrown or thrusted spears are at least 500,000 years old (much older if you count Chimpanzees) and lasted until the 1800s even among civilized nations.

Oldest evidence for atlatl is ~20,000 years old, enjoyed maybe 10,000 years of existence alongside the spear, and went out of style in most parts of the world by the holocene.


Dead? You betcha. It didn't work.

Ten thousand years of not working?

Apparently so. Just how commonly used it was is not known, but the commonality of several animals that existed during it's heyday is known (wooly mammoth and rhino went extinct right around the time it did too). I further express doubt that all the materials described as atlatls or atlatl darts really were atlatls or atlatl darts. Some of them (split based antler points) are now being reinterpreted as weaving equipment.

[riverrat]

back when hunters used atl atls i believe they hunted in groups. one group moving spooking out game, others waiting in ambush. heck modern hunters still do that with guns.lets say you can only hit somethin with a atlatl at 25 yards. lets say it wont be pin point accurate. lets toss 20 darts at intended target all at once. how would you like to place a bet at least one of those 10 out of 20 darts that hit the animal, hit it in a vitals. ? group hunting, its what brought home dinner. Tony

[mullet]

You keep telling everyone to read about the Aboriginals, (plural) in Australia, but I've seen no evidence on your part that the aboriginal you base your whole argument on even knew what he was doing or spoke for all of the Aboriginals in Australia.

 I'm starting to think you are one of those people that likes to throw a statement out like you are an authority and then when there are replies you excuse yourself and go to the bathroom.

[John32r]

You keep telling everyone to read about the Aboriginals, (plural) in Australia, but I've seen no evidence on your part that the aboriginal you base your whole argument on even knew what he was doing or spoke for all of the Aboriginals in Australia.

 I'm starting to think you are one of those people that likes to throw a statement out like you are an authority and then when there are replies you excuse yourself and go to the bathroom.

Lol.

The statement is from Baldwin Spencer, an ethnographer who lived among Australian Aboriginal tribes in the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Here's a link to the quote, you can read the entire book for free if you like.

"The end is fixed into the point of the spear-
thrower, and, aided by the leverage thus gained, he throws it
forward with all his strength. Different men vary much in
their skill in spear-throwing, but it takes an exceptionally
good man to kill or disable at more than twenty yards.  "

https://archive.org/stream/nativetribescen01gillgoog#page/n43/mode/2up

[JoJoDapyro]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/179510735124337270/

Here is a good answer.

[JoJoDapyro]

Trolling is supposed to be done in an unassuming way. Being right about everything isn't cool. If you already know the answer, don't ask the question.