Hand thrown spear better than the Atlatl?

[JW_Halverson]

So what if a tool in my trade is used on every continent and has been done so for time immemorial, and only in very recent times is replaced by a machine? 

For a more concrete example, the air nailer has now PROVEN that 10,000 years of hammers was a waste of time, the hammer was an abject failure, and anyone that is uses one is severely lacking in cognitive skills and a rank atavist? 

Yes, pre-history (and even recent history) has been mythologized.  But when a tool worked for cultures on every habitated continent by thousands of cultures over tens of thousands of years, that argues for it's inclusion in the list of successful tools along with hammers, stone knives and points, Archimedes screw, and canvas sails, all items that have been generally replaced with modern tools.

John, I was taking bets whether you would have the nerve to come back after being bounced.  I am paying them off. The current pool regards long you last.

[Marc St Louis]

I guarantee you a high school javelin thrower can throw a heavier javelin than an atlatl dart for farther distance and with more accuracy than an atlatlist. The maximum hunting range for the atlatl appears to be 20-30 yards, ancient Romans threw spears for twice that distance. At that range an atlatl dart wouldn't even have the kinetic energy to break skin. The atlatl is essentially a scam.

If you really believe that then you wouldn't mind someone proficient with an atlatl throwing one at you tipped with a well made flint point at the proposed 60 yards

[Ruddy Darter]

https://youtu.be/2L-r68VGtJA


...I'm quite impressed by it, and they look like a few retired folk there, am I talking about the same thing atlatl?

     Ruddy Darter.

[CherokeeKC]

Primitive people didnt worry about "ethical kills".  They were trying to survive and could track a wounded animal way better than modern man.  So Im sure they didnt wait for perfect shot oppurtunity or not take the shot if the animal was staying "out of range".  They would take the shot no matter what especially if they were on edge of starvation.

[mullet]

This whole thread is like the field of Anthropology, one long, guessing game of one persons idea of what  somebody did 10,000 years ago. Kinda boring with no proof.

[Zuma]

Light Spear (equivalent to a javelin): 2 pounds, 50 mph, 1" diameter
Heavy Spear (equivalent to a Roman pilum): 5 pounds, 25 mph, 1 1/2" diameter
Light Atlatl Dart: 3 ounces, 85 mph, 1/2" diameter
Heavy Atlatl Dart: 6 ounces, 70 mph, 5/8" diameter



Kinetic Energy Hunting Usage
< 25 ft. lbs. Small game
25 - 41 ft. lbs. Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)
42 - 65 ft. lbs. Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)
> 66 ft. lbs. Toughest Game (cape buffalo, grizzly, etc.)



MOMENTUM CALCULATIONS:
In descending order


Projectile Weight Velocity Momentum
Heavy Spear 5 pounds 37 fps    5.75 slug-feet/second
Light Spear 2 pounds 73.5        4.57
   
Heavy Dart 6 ounces 103          1.20
   
Light Dart 3 ounces   125           .73
   
   




SECTIONAL DENSITY CALCULATIONS:
In descending order


Projectile Weight Diameter Sectional Density
Heavy Spear 5 pounds 1.5" 2.222 psi
Light Spear 2 pounds 1" 2.000
Heavy Dart 6 ounces .625" .960
Light Dart 3 ounces .5" .750

 How Hard Does It Hit?
www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm -
   
 

[John32r]

Primitive people didnt worry about "ethical kills".  They were trying to survive and could track a wounded animal way better than modern man.  So Im sure they didnt wait for perfect shot oppurtunity or not take the shot if the animal was staying "out of range".  They would take the shot no matter what especially if they were on edge of starvation.

Right, but Baldwin Spencer explicitly states that it took an exceptionally good man to kill "or disable" at more than 20 yards. Which implies that an atlatl dart is not typically disabling at that range, even if it hits the target.

[John32r]

Looks like the atlatl wasn't penetrating steel armor after all, even at near point-blank distances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw

[criveraville]

Looks like the atlatl wasn't penetrating steel armor after all, even at near point-blank distances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw

Hubris. Hubris completely void of humility, common decency and general unspoken rules of engaging in a "meaningful " discourse. John23r, your threads, post, and replies are full of hubris bent on proving people wrong by setting them up with your opening statements. After which, you proceed into a nonsensical apology with facts, quotes, figures, charts, etc..

Primitive Archer members, my suggestion is to not reply to Jon's post or replies. We all have better things to do than to argue with the court jester.

[mullet]

Kind of like the little Troll under the bridge.

[CherokeeKC]

Primitive people didnt worry about "ethical kills".  They were trying to survive and could track a wounded animal way better than modern man.  So Im sure they didnt wait for perfect shot oppurtunity or not take the shot if the animal was staying "out of range".  They would take the shot no matter what especially if they were on edge of starvation.

Right, but Baldwin Spencer explicitly states that it took an exceptionally good man to kill "or disable" at more than 20 yards. Which implies that an atlatl dart is not typically disabling at that range, even if it hits the target.

Your a tard

[criveraville]

Kind of like the little Troll under the bridge.

^^^

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.

This sense of the word "troll" and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, but

[JW_Halverson]

Looks like the atlatl wasn't penetrating steel armor after all, even at near point-blank distances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw

Hubris. Hubris completely void of humility, common decency and general unspoken rules of engaging in a "meaningful " discourse. John23r, your threads, post, and replies are full of hubris bent on proving people wrong by setting them up with your opening statements. After which, you proceed into a nonsensical apology with facts, quotes, figures, charts, etc..

Primitive Archer members, my suggestion is to not reply to Jon's post or replies. We all have better things to do than to argue with the court jester.

You are right, Cip.  He has nothing to add to the Forum but discord and strife.  Even an anointing with mullet's holy buffalo whiz can't fix this.

[CherokeeKC]

So has he been banned yet?

[JackCrafty]

Maybe I can pop the corn after all?