Condors and lead

[bubbles]

This thread is soaring like a Condor in an updraft.  ☺

Well, if one good thing came of this thread, it is that
I am going to look into switching to non toxic fishing weights.  I just never sat down and thought about it before. Thanks for all the info and discussion.

[JW_Halverson]

8.) Capture and chelation treatment is fairly quick. And since release back into the wild, some of the birds have shown an unnatural interest in humans and have been endangering themselves by hanging around population centers where they have a higher propensity to get into trouble.  The capture and treatment works to sensitize them to humans and convince them to move out of populated areas.

9.) The project has been considered a success for the greater part.  And frankly, was anyone expecting perfection? 

10) The Endangered Species Act.  Directs the Secretary of Interior to develop and review recovery plans for listed species without showing preference for any taxonomic group.  Also directs they establish recovery plan criteria for listed species.


So why are you spinning your wheels in here grinding your axe to a razor edge over the subject instead of putting this question to the people that are actually working to resolve the problem?  Why not go to the source? 

[Zuma]

8.) Capture and chelation treatment is fairly quick. And since release back into the wild, some of the birds have shown an unnatural interest in humans and have been endangering themselves by hanging around population centers where they have a higher propensity to get into trouble.  The capture and treatment works to sensitize them to humans and convince them to move out of populated areas.

So I guess it traumatizes the creatures so mush they want to go remote.
Not to shabby except for the trauma and then the degree of difficulty
to re-capture and re juice them for what, something in excess of $10,000
a pop?.


9.) The project has been considered a success for the greater part.  And frankly, was anyone expecting perfection? 

By whom? The researchers themselves. Plenty members
here have voiced their trepidations
Along with the peer review study I posted a link to.
Did you read it? It's posted several times.

10) The Endangered Species Act.  Directs the Secretary of Interior to develop and review recovery plans for listed species without showing preference for any taxonomic group.  Also directs they establish recovery plan criteria for listed species.

Wether they work or not? Is that little ditty in there?


So why are you spinning your wheels in here grinding your axe to a razor edge over the subject instead of putting this question to the people that are actually working to resolve the problem?  Why not go to the source?

Well If you are asking me-- I started the thread.
Why are you? All the other members will have to field
that on their own
As far as the source question, if directed to me?
I was relying on you because you said you would tackle
that in a previous post. You haven't even answered the
question about who is charge.
Attaching a name/group name to your 1-10 would be helpful too
No axes here JW, strange ?
Again if the question is for all members- their on their own.
Thanks for the diaolog.
Zuma

[JW_Halverson]

Radical difference between trauma and stress. Yes, it is a stressor.  However it is fleeting.  They live in the moment and don't end up in on a therapist's couch over it.  Anecdotally, I dealt with a injured great horned owl that stood in full threat posture while I tossed mouse after mouse to her and she wolfed them down.  Stressed?  Yes. Traumatized, not likely.

Next, yes, by the team that is doing the work, the people that have background education in the field, that have spent the time researching, and are quite capable of making their own conclusions. 

Whether they work or not?  Wow, failed logic there.  How do you predetermine success or failure so that you can decide to go forward with a project or not? 

[Zuma]

 Perhaps you missed this post

Ok skeptics I guess you have a problem with clicking a link.
So here is the one I posted for you on page five.
 Now please stop chewing on my ankles.

Bare in mind this study was done in 2008 so if they are still complaining
about the mortality and poisoning it must be because they continue to
subject the poor birds to that fate. Or the documentry was way old?
Please tell me your take on it.

I included the conclusion. I read the paper in it's intireity


Effectiveness of Action to Reduce Exposure of Free-Ranging ...



Dec 24, 2008 ... Condors were routinely recaptured and treated to reduce their lead levels as ... We simulated the effect of ending the existing lead exposure ...

 
 
We used a previously published population model [8] to assess likely long-term trends in the numbers of condors in the absence of further releases and without chelation and other treatment of birds with elevated blood lead concentrations. According to this model, the condor population would tend to decline under present conditions unless natural adult mortality was at the lower end of the likely range or reproduction was at the “maximum conceivable” level (Table 5). Since the assumptions of the “maximum conceivable” scenario are extremely unlikely to apply to any real population of condors, this indicates that the Grand Canyon condor population is unlikely to be self-sustaining at current levels of exposure to lead.



Rhys E. Green,1,2,* W. Grainger Hunt,3 Christopher N. Parish,3 and Ian Newton4
Tom Pizzari, Editor
Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ▼
Copyright Green et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:

I doubt much has changed in the last several years.
But in the document I saw they said they were losing to many birds.
I don't know the date of the documentary but it was aired just before
I started the thread.
Zuma

[Zuma]

Thanks for all the contributions folks
My closing statement is-- err got to think quick.
Birds are getting abused no matter what. Period.....
I understand the passion of others.  O:)I hope they
understand mine.  :)It's a good night for you-alls
last statmentments as I will close the thread
late tonight.  One post per member.
Please make it one you are proud of,
The other thread will stay open??
Cumbi-ah or whatever.
Zuma
My overwhelming thanks to the moderators
patience and trust in us to be civil and still
have a stimulating discussion.
Promise it won't happen again.

[JW_Halverson]

Something I am wondering in all of this, what with all the concern for the stress on the individuals, or in your word, trauma, are you advocating we end stress/trauma for them?  It seems yes.  But why condors, or more specifically why JUST condors?  Or do you also feel we must eliminate anthropocentric stress/trauma on all individual animals?  In that case it appears you would be anti-hunting. 

In conservation, there are times when it may be necessary to induce stress (or trauma, if you insist) on animals in order to further the conservation of the species.  I speak of trap and transfer, in the specific.  This technique has successfully reintroduced the wild turkey to every habitat where they were naturally found as well as many where they were not natural.  And many were injured or killed in the process.  Same goes for reintroductions of bighorn sheep into numerous areas in the west.  Ditto for blackfooted ferrets.

In the big picture, these people are working to recover a species that has a chance of survival.  There are and will be bumps in every road worth travelling.  It just looks to me that you wish to fault them for not being quitters.

[Zuma]

If you are looking for me to answer questions?
No can do. No one here answers mine. They just
post what they want to hear themselves.

[bubby]

According to the folks that did the research--
they wanted to blame a large part of the implanted/
transplanted Condor deaths on lead poison.
This study was in the Grand Canyon area.
The thing that struck me peculiar was that they
blamed it on hunting losses, creatures that are
shot and not tracked or recovered. The Condors then
eat these creatures and the lead that they consume
 brings about their demise.
I say BS. Any thoughts
Zuma



Your original post didn't even ask a question and personally this reminds me of some posts on the knapping page that were at best argumentative and uninformative, you asked for my thoughts, well i think that plenty of people answered many ? That arose in this post and you don't like most of the answers so you change trails trying to muddle the issue and then say answer my question well you really just asked fot our opinios and you got'em like them or not, with all due respect zuma

[Zuma]

Bubby
You are a mans / peoples / folks person IMO
All I did was ask for your thoughts.
Thank you with respect for yours.
Zuma

[mullet]

The only thing missing is Ben chiming in,,,,

[Zuma]

[quote author=mullet
No secrets here.
It's just a good ole boy's downeybrook.
Most likley we all will look back and eat our words. :embarassed:
But for sure totally in respect for "The Plight of the Condor"
Amen, Zuma