Condors and lead

[Zuma]

According to the folks that did the research--
they wanted to blame a large part of the implanted/
transplanted Condor deaths on lead poison.
This study was in the Grand Canyon area.
The thing that struck me peculiar was that they
blamed it on hunting losses, creatures that are
shot and not tracked or recovered. The Condors then
eat these creatures and the lead that they consume
 brings about their demise.
I say BS. Any thoughts
Zuma

[Traxx]

I tend to agree with you.

[caveman2533]

Scott van Arsdale from New York, knapper and eagle researcher  for his career says this is a common cause of death for Eagles. Lead poisoning from ingesting lost animals from hunting. I too find that hard to believe. What is the percentage of animals that are lost fist and foremost and then what percentage of that are consumed by Eagles. He has said it is often the gut piles where there is a high percentage of the lead. How many gut piles in the open. I have never seen an eagle in the deep woods, where the majority of poles are. On the condor note how much hunting is there in the Grand Canyon? I am skeptical.

[neuse]

Uh NO.

How many pounds of lead are they reffering to per dead/lost animal?
I think the average bullet contains about 2-3 grams of lead.

[Marc St Louis]

Death by lead poisoning is usually what happens to a varmint that annoys me too much 

[Eric Krewson]

If this nonsense is true how come you don't see dead buzzards lying all over the place, they are usually first to a kill.

[Zuma]

All great replies.
It's hard to understand how they can quantify
their results and why they would go in that direction.
If I find some time I may snoop this subject.
Thanks Zuma

[Traxx]

It's hard to understand how they can quantify
their results and why they would go in that direction.

I agree,its hard to understand how,but why,i understand fully.

[bubby]

I'm sure jw will chime in at some point and i know he is pro lead ban on bullets, but i have read several studies claiming most of the lead ingested was from lead paint chips, anyways there is not much we can do here in calif they banned lead entirely for hunting in the next few years, funny its still ok at the range

[Traxx]

many years ago,i lived and worked on a remote ranch in Ca,It was the location,that the last wild native Condor was spotted in the State.They wanted to reintroduce the species there,but the owner refused to allow it.When i asked him why,he replied,if i allow it,they will put me out of business and end up owning this ranch.Since then,i have seen a Nature conservancy organization,do that very thing,on several privately owned lands and even on public lands.

[Outbackbob48]

I'm not buying it. Y a think about all the dead animals out there and the percentage that would have lead in them, now if they said Ford or Chevy residues was killing the condors I would believe it, Automobil road kills everywhere but condors must chose Hunters kill. Something stinks with this story and it isn't the road kills I might have been born at night , but not last night. Bob

[jeffp51]

Here are some sources that claim lead poisoning of birds.   I just googled  "raptor deaths due to lead poisoning." I didn't read all of them, but there are biologists doing autopsies. I am guessing some of them are right. Just because something doesn't seem likely doesn't mean it isn't happening.  I would like to see condors and eagles continue to be a part of the environment.  They are beautiful animals (in the air, of course).

1 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, California Department of Fish and Game and Arizona Game and Fish Department

2 Tranel and Kimmel. 2009. Impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife, the environment, and human health—A literature review and implications for Minnesota. In Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans. The Peregrine Fund.

3 Finkelstein et al. 2011. Lead Poisoning from Ingested Ammunition is Precluding Recovery of the Endangered California Condor.
Presentation at Society of Toxicology annual meeting, March 2011.

4 Sidor et al. Mortality of Common Loons in New England 1987 to 2000. Journal of Wildlife Diseases 2003. 39(2).

5 University of Minnesota Raptor Center.

6 Harmata and Restani. 1995. Environmental contaminants and cholinesterase in blood of vernal migrant bald and golden eagles in Montana. Intermountain Journal of Sciences 1(1):1-15.

7 Schulz et al. 2002. Spent-Shot Availability and Ingestion on Areas Managed for Mourning Doves. Wildlife Society Bulletin 30:112-120.
8 Schulz et al. 2006. Acute Lead Toxicosis in Mourning Doves. Journal of Wildlife Management 70:413-421.

9 D.J. Case & Associates. 2006. Non-Toxic Shot Regulation Inventory of the Untied States and Canada. Report to the Ad Hoc Mourning Dove and Lead Toxicosis Working Group. Final Report, August 2006.

10 Rogers et al. 2009. Lead ingestion by scavenging mammalian carnivores in the Yellowstone ecosystem. Extended abstract in Ingestion of Lead from Spent Ammunition: Implications for Wildlife and Humans. The Peregrine Fund.

11 Finkelstein et al. 2003. Lead poisoning of seabirds: Environmental risks from leaded paint at a decommissioned military base. Environmental Science and Technology, 37: 3256-3260.

12 U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Lead Poisoning: A Historical Perspective.

13 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

14 Anderson et al. 2000. Ingestion of Lead and Non-Toxic Shotgun Pellets by Ducks in the Mississippi Flyway. Journal of Wildlife Management 64:848-857.

[Zuma]

Thanks for all the input and links. It is good education imo.

My first problem is -- A Condor is a very big bird with a digestive system
like municipal waste treatment plant. A pellet or a .45 cal I would think
if ingested would fly through the birds guts like you know what through
a tin horn. Not much time in the body to poison.
Second-- The number of these birds is very small, as I would imagine
the numbers of dead animals not recovered from being shot is.
So the odds of the two even encountering each other seem very small.
Although I could see this as a minor problem in much smaller critters
that might find it difficult to pass the lead.
Condor re-introduction is a failing multi million dollar endeavor.
Much of that money keeps these folks in jobs like catching the Condors
yearly and giving them blood poisoning treatments to clean their blood.
BTW I can't find where a single lead fragment has ever been found inside
one of these Condors,
Zuma

[DC]

Condors swallow small stones the aid grinding food in their crops. When a bullet gets in there it doesn't get out til it's ground to powder. Much more dangerous for birds than mammals.

[Zuma]

Condors swallow small stones the aid grinding food in their crops. When a bullet gets in there it doesn't get out til it's ground to powder. Much more dangerous for birds than mammals.

That is interesting. Thanks DC. Do you have some info we could look at.
If so, you would think the scientists/bird docs would
 find that lead in their crops when they do their anual evaluation of all the birds.
But they don't unless I am missing something.
They only find it in their blood??
Zuma