Author Topic: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?  (Read 16024 times)

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Offline Hamish

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2015, 01:50:54 am »
When an injury lawyer takes a case they do so on the belief that they will have a reasonable chance of success, because they don't work for nothing, they take a huge chunk of the complainants pay out.   A lot of this nuisance/vexatious  litigation comes when big companies find it cheaper to pay out a nuisance complainant, or not want bad publicity associated with legal action even if they aren't actually in the wrong. Most cases don't even make it to court and are settled with a payout.
If the case went before a jury, or even with a magistrate I would back myself 100%. I have found magistrates not to be sympathetic with people that waste court time.  I have also found that magistrates aren't stupid either. Unless there is a case involving archery bows breaking that has set a precedent in your jurisdiction, that clearly states you are in the wrong, stop worrying.
An injury lawyer is not going to sue someone with low assets because even if they won the case they aren't going to get paid. You can't get blood out of a stone.

If you incorporate a business, and  then the business gets sued and you are not personally liable. If the assets of the business don't amount to much, the business might close down but you aren't going to lose your house. I don't particularly like this approach but so many weasel businesses that accept your money and fail to deliver the goods to an acceptable standard use this approach. They either close down and re open under another name or declare bankruptcy.
 



Offline Del the cat

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2015, 03:20:10 am »
Bravo Hamish... some sense at last!
Del
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Offline Pappy

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2015, 03:47:13 am »
 ??? Don't sell many but never really thought about it. ;)
 Pappy
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Offline Del the cat

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2015, 04:43:05 am »
Anyhow... I thought that in the US a Smith and Wesson out ranked a frivolous law suit? ;) >:D
Del
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Offline Pappy

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2015, 06:40:54 am »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D
  Pappy
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Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2015, 03:27:44 pm »
If you like had the buyer sign a weaver.

 Personally I've only had 2 osage war bows.

  A 98#er and a 109 #er. I've made 7 or 8 over 100 pounds.  I do'nt think a hunting weight bow built well enough to be sold to someone thats looked or held and shot.

  I OVER BUILD MY BOWS A LITTLE. That stops old joe when he just picks it up and over draws it.

You could just build em ALL over 100#, that will stop 90 percent of people from over drawing em too,  :).
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2015, 03:29:56 pm »
I looked into it years back and it was gonna run me something like $5k/yr.

What if you just started a limited liability company? Here in ohio it is only about 125 + 50 bucks to register your trade name, so like 175 total? Not sure what all they would protect you from though... In theory, say you got sued, and all you got in your "bow building business" is a couple osage staves and some tools, they can only take your staves and stuff. They shouldn't be able to go after your personal assets, only your LLC and what you got invested in it.
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2015, 03:35:55 pm »
  Sorry boys I live in WV. kinda red neck in some ways. In 23 years of building,selling bows never gave it a thought once. But I'm not a sueing person, and twice I could have.

I got macked by a pizza delivery kid in a hurry when i was on a bike once. I had tons of lawyers sending letters. Everyone I know said I should of took one of those lawyers up on their offer, but instead I just took the first offer from the insurance company. In hindsight I prolly should of listened to everyone, but I wouldn't wanna screw over someones business just cuz some kid decided to smoke a joint before going to work...
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline toomanyknots

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2015, 03:40:42 pm »
Short answer:-
No.

Read no further unless you enjoy sarcasm.
Long answer:-
For pities sake get a grip... you have obviously been brainwashed by insurance companies and lawyers. ::)
As has already been said, if you are really worried get them to sign acknowledging that they understand the risks of selfbows.
One reason I enjoy this craft is the total absence of paperwork.
I'm sure before long lawyers will be insisting we have public liability insurance the minute we are born.

Anyhow, they could never prove it was the fault of the bowyer (unless it blew first draw in your presence) It is their responsibility to check the bow every time it is used, store it correctly etc. That's one reason I like bows to be collected in person, not shipped as I always demonstrate them.
Oh dear I feel sick now... wish I'd never read this post.
On a scale of 1 to 10 for important life events this scores 0
Del
(Scurries off to write risk assessment before boiling kettle for tea  ;D)

I'd say if your gonna sell a bunch of bows, sell as a business and start a LLC that protects your personal assets. If you wanna sell just a few, just make sure you don't sell to a jerk that would sue you. Maybe sell to friends and family... that way, you might get to a chance once in a while to visit your old bow and see how it's doing,  ;D.
"The way of heaven is like the bending of a bow-
 the upper part is pressed down,
 the lower part is raised up,
 the part that has too much is reduced,
 the part that has too little is increased."

- Tao Te Ching, 77, A new translation by Victor H. Mair

Offline DC

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2015, 06:58:07 pm »
Sometimes friends and family can be the biggest jerks :(

Offline Weylin

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2015, 05:41:59 am »
I make and sell bows for a living and liability insurance really is a must!!!! I have "care for Your Bow" sheets that come with every bow as per the insurance company and ask a ton of question of each buyer regarding draw length to fit them with the bow that suits their needs best. All of this is done per insurance company including a paper signed buy the buyer stating that they understand the use and care of a handmade non-fiberglass bow. This way if there is a problem, the insurance company takes over any lawsuits that may arise. Never had an injury to any of my customer due to a bow failing and all have been satisfied with a replacement bow.
  In short, if you're doing it as a business, GET INSURANCE!!!! If you're just unloading bows to be rid of them, trade or give them away. Once money is exchanged, you could be responsible for accidents without the proper paperwork. Even with stupid people that think the bow is indestructable!!!
   Hope this helps. :)

  G-Monee   >:D

Mind if I ask you what that costs you? I'm going the LLC/trust that people aren't A-holes route right now.

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2015, 07:08:49 am »
I'm a bit bemused by all this... has anyone actually ever seen a significant injury from a bow breaking?

One of my mates shoots warbows and even those from 'big name' bowyers tend to explode with alarming regularity. Ok he's had the odd scrape on arm or a bump on the head, but nothing that would even warrant running to your Mom for.
Breaking arrows are possibly a more significant risk, but does anyone worry about that?
I seriously think the lawyers over that side of the pond should be culled for the health of the general public.

So I repeat, does anyone know of a significant injury caused by a breaking bow?
Del
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Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2015, 08:10:04 am »
I'm a bit bemused by all this... has anyone actually ever seen a significant injury from a bow breaking?

One of my mates shoots warbows and even those from 'big name' bowyers tend to explode with alarming regularity. Ok he's had the odd scrape on arm or a bump on the head, but nothing that would even warrant running to your Mom for.
Breaking arrows are possibly a more significant risk, but does anyone worry about that?
I seriously think the lawyers over that side of the pond should be culled for the health of the general public.

So I repeat, does anyone know of a significant injury caused by a breaking bow?
Del

I was asked this question not long ago and my reply was essentially the same
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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Offline bushboy

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2015, 12:00:36 pm »
I suspect an eye injury would be at the top of the list.i always tell people I have gifted a bow to were safety glasses.how ever I once tagged myself on the man tenders with a certain amount of discomfort!lol!
Some like motorboats,I like kayaks,some like guns,I like bows,but not the wheelie type.

Offline Tree_Ninja

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Re: Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2015, 12:27:54 pm »
I feel like this stuff is blown out of proportion. 

A general sign-off of liability when item is purchased would be simple.

 As someone previously stated, the bowyer has no way of knowing what condition the bow is stored in or what sort of abuse the new owner may place on the equipment.

What if someone gets so excited about the perfect grouping of arrows he achieved at the archery range, and then decides to drive away at a very unsafe speed afterwards? Correlation does not prove causation.

 It would be tough for the injured to prove they were not negligent in the care of the equipment.  What would an "expert witness" claim? Can anyone even claim with legal certainty that a bow had failed due to manufacturer flaws? Pretty ambiguous stuff.

The only lawsuits google turned up is for cross-bow thumb amputations.

As for friends and family, I'm sure a sordid picture of historical negligence could be described in a court setting. "Billy, in 1982 did you or did you not jump over two of your aquantences with a bmx bike? Both of whom are present in todays proceedings?"