Does anyone sell a few bows and worry about liability insurance?

[Del the cat]

I suspect an eye injury would be at the top of the list.i always tell people I have gifted a bow to were safety glasses.how ever I once tagged myself on the man tenders with a certain amount of discomfort!lol!

Not the usual fall back of a mythical eye injury! Anyone actually heard of one?
The possibility of one may be at the top of a list... BUT there isn't even a list to be top of...!
No significant injuries reported above the "certain amount of discomfort" level.
Anyone ever been sued for causing a certain amount of discomfort?
Del

[Weylin]

To be clear, I agree with you Del. I think the risk is blown way out of proportion and I find our American system of lawsuits disgusting.

[willie]

I agree with most all here, that the worry about a broken bow bringing a lawsuit is somewhat overblown.

However, I wish to add a little to what Hamish said, concerning lawsuits and llc, for those that are following this thread in order to understand a little more about liability in general.

An injury lawyer is not going to sue someone with low assets because even if they won the case they aren't going to get paid. You can't get blood out of a stone.

a good point, and incorporation may help to further dissuade frivolous lawsuits.

If you incorporate a business, and  then the business gets sued and you are not personally liable.

Maybe, maybe not....

If you are an investor in the llc, but have no direct part in any day to day decisions that may lead to an injury, then your investment would be at risk, but your liability would be limited to the extent of your investment. and you would probably receive the benefits of incorporation.

If your management or workmanship can be found to be negligent in the event of an injury, you can also be sued personally. In that case,the llc may not protect you as much, as the injured party may characterize the llc as a shell you set up, to hide in from liability. This might be easier for them to do, especially  if you are a sole member llc (with no other investors), as there are few other reasons to being incorporated.

bottom line is that if you have a lot of assets at risk, llc is not a substitute for actual insurance coverage. As with most other thing in life, you get what you pay for.

I am not a lawyer, but please do not ask me how I know this.

[JW_Halverson]

I agree with most all here, that the worry about a broken bow bringing a lawsuit is somewhat overblown.

However, I wish to add a little to what Hamish said, concerning lawsuits and llc, for those that are following this thread in order to understand a little more about liability in general.

An injury lawyer is not going to sue someone with low assets because even if they won the case they aren't going to get paid. You can't get blood out of a stone.

a good point, and incorporation may help to further dissuade frivolous lawsuits.

If you incorporate a business, and  then the business gets sued and you are not personally liable.

Maybe, maybe not....

If you are an investor in the llc, but have no direct part in any day to day decisions that may lead to an injury, then your investment would be at risk, but your liability would be limited to the extent of your investment. and you would probably receive the benefits of incorporation.

If your management or workmanship can be found to be negligent in the event of an injury, you can also be sued personally. In that case,the llc may not protect you as much, as the injured party may characterize the llc as a shell you set up, to hide in from liability. This might be easier for them to do, especially  if you are a sole member llc (with no other investors), as there are few other reasons to being incorporated.

bottom line is that if you have a lot of assets at risk, llc is not a substitute for actual insurance coverage. As with most other thing in life, you get what you pay for.

I am not a lawyer, but please do not ask me how I know this.

1) No blood from a stone, sure.  But with a judgement against you hanging over your head, you cannot sell a used vehicle or even trade it in without losing the title.  You cannot sell a piece of real estate, and buying one is gonna be a drag because judgements stand against your credit rating.  You will pay.  In the end, you will pay.

2)  Thank goodness we have gotten rid of lawyers whipping up frivolous lawsuits.  So glad that is a thing of the past.

[Weylin]

How much protection does a waiver signed by the customer actually grant you in court?

[JW_Halverson]

How much protection does a waiver signed by the customer actually grant you in court?

A friend of mine that retired from practicing corporate law at the highly advanced age of 51 yrs of age said it would work better stopping an arrow.

[Eric Krewson]

A woman once sold 5 acres of my father's land she didn't own. He took her to court and after several years of litigation got his land back. His legal fees were much more than the land was worth but he wasn't going to let this woman steal his land. She was buddy-buddy with the judge and all the local officials so it was a tough fight.

My point is; although the chance of getting sued is slim, the thought of having to defend myself in court is not worth it for me.

[toomanyknots]

If your management or workmanship can be found to be negligent in the event of an injury, you can also be sued personally. In that case,the llc may not protect you as much, as the injured party may characterize the llc as a shell you set up, to hide in from liability. This might be easier for them to do, especially  if you are a sole member llc (with no other investors), as there are few other reasons to being incorporated.

I never understand this stuff... if the whole point of forming a limited liability company is to have limited liability (hence the name), why or earth does the shear fact you set up an LLC to limit liability cancel out your limited liability?

 

Whats the definitely of a shell company?

[willie]

tmk-
there was a time in this country when people who did not pay their debts went to jail. The llc was designed primarily for investors. We still live in a society where we are accountable for our damages to others, (hopefully to the same degree as our involvement in the action that caused the damage)....... ummmm... hold on, there might be something wrong with that last sentence........

As courts and the insurance industry seem to loose sight of whom they serve, perhaps there are alternative business strategies that can reduce the risk of nuisance lawsuits??

[JoJoDapyro]

How much protection does a waiver signed by the customer actually grant you in court?

I was also told by an attorney that a waiver you sign for your kids to do things releasing the other party from liability means nothing. As you can not sign away the best interests of a minor. 

[JW_Halverson]

If your management or workmanship can be found to be negligent in the event of an injury, you can also be sued personally. In that case,the llc may not protect you as much, as the injured party may characterize the llc as a shell you set up, to hide in from liability. This might be easier for them to do, especially  if you are a sole member llc (with no other investors), as there are few other reasons to being incorporated.

I never understand this stuff... if the whole point of forming a limited liability company is to have limited liability (hence the name), why or earth does the shear fact you set up an LLC to limit liability cancel out your limited liability?

 

Whats the definitely of a shell company?

There are things you can do that "rend the veil" separating yourself from your LLC.  The separation between yourself and that LLC are tissue thin, thinner than they paper it is printed on.  For example, if you use your company to further your personal opinions in a political or religious debate, like a certain hobby supply store recently did, it can breach those protections, leaving the corporate officers, owners, board members, etc to legal liabilities.  There are a lot of subtleties, and when it comes to a small (make that tiny) business a lawsuit is a lot like a knife fight.  Even if you win, you are likely to bleed out and be the second place loser.

[Hamish]

What I don't understand is many peoples reaction to this hypothetical situation where they might be sued. Actually not being negligent, is a pretty darn good defence. I wouldn't rely on a lawyer to present your case(legal advice certainly) but they are not going to do the best job to present your case due to lack of specific knowledge. If you are an experienced bowyer you are going to be the best witness, at demonstrating how much actually goes into making a wood bow, and how thorough the making and testing process is.
I will also add if you have let a bow with obvious problems out for sale I don't have much sympathy. Not only because it could cause damage, but even if it doesn't you will have to build that person another if it breaks, or refund them the money. This last reason is a pretty good incentive for not selling a bow that you aren't 100% confident in.

Judges, magistrates and juries have enough sense to see things with a sense of fairness if you can explain your case properly. They also don't tend to like lawyers who try to bully the average joe, ambulance chase. The legal system is not  like an episode of Law and Order SVU, where anything in your favour is tossed out for no good reason.

[JoJoDapyro]

If you are an experienced bowyer you are going to be the best witness, at demonstrating how much actually goes into making a wood bow, and how thorough the making and testing process is.

There in lies the problem. I am a Traffic control technician. I have 12 years experience in what I do. But, law firms have people who specialize in what I do as well, and they are more versed than I am. Thus, I need to make sure that every Traffic control plan I approve is done to the very letter. Any accident or injury law firm will have someone who will pick through all of the information, and find something that will show that you are at fault, If they can. If they can't they would either not take the case, or bully you into a settlement. Frivolous lawsuits are real, A company in Texas has been suing people who produce Podcasts for using a "Numbered system" to number their episodes. Adam Carolla was sued, and he spent $500,000.00 to fight it.

So, if you had the money to take, a law firm may be interested in taking it. Not that it is a problem right now, but the bar is set pretty low for some of those guys.

[Selfbowman]

Does it realy matter . Do you think the money hungry ambulance chaser would not sue you if you gave them the bow. No different than a kid coming on your property and having a free swim and drowning. If they think you have money and they can get some they will. Arvin

[BrokenArrow]

Thanks for all your opinions and thoughts.
I personally always wear protective eye wear now and that was really my only concern for liability.
I had made a laminated bow a couple years ago and it was maple backed and a black walnut core (only maple backed bow I ever made or will ever make)
It was light and shot great for a couple months then BOOM!!!!!....I was left holding the handle and the limbs were dangling by the string. I realized I had been cut as one limb went behind me and came back and cut my cheek 2 inches short of my eye. Boy it happened in a millisecond.
I no longer make laminates for other reasons but only make self bows now.
Made me really think...