Founding a new worldwide Primitive flightbow federation?

[Badger]

   Some comments on the broadhead flight class. I wasn't there when I drafted the rules but I suspect that the reason they decided to shoot this class with broadheads is because it was the only way to control how far back the archer drew his bow. The broadhead stops at the back of the bow. If we shot this round using field points we would have to measure to where the arrow fell off the back of the shelf.

   In the 50# broadhead class which is my favorite class we are shooting 500 grain arrows which comes out to 10 grains per pound. If you happen to have a guy shooting a 120# bow in the unlimited broadhead class he is still shooting a 500 grain arrow which works out to be about 4.2 grains per pound. It doesn't make much sense if the bow is being judged on it s ability as a hunting bow. This is why I favor a traditional class shooting somewhere between 8 and 10 grains per pound or whatever we agree on.
The challenge would be to have a way of controlling draw length without using a broadhead. There are some safety concerns in overdrawing an arrow and I would not like to encourage this.

[redhawk55]

"Not sure why you need classes for gender or age?
Surely the draw weight will limit participation anyway."

Del, it is very true what you saw, I´ve just spoken theoretically. Very fast there´ll be a lots of classes.

PatM, o.k., but I think we´ve to limit the handles measurements very exactly.

Jules, Del, I don´t think it to be to difficult to find the good fibre stuff. Like selfbowery weaving has its renaissance, go for a supplier and you´ll get what you want, at the best biologically grown.

So who wants to elaborate our basic rules?

Michael

[redhawk55]

Steve, we posted at the same time.
For to be honest I´ve not thought to much about broadheads.
Thanks for clearing up me. It looks different to me now.
But anyway it sounds delicious to handle overdrawing. There are safety concerns. Personal responsibility?

Michael

[Badger]

Here is my proposal

Flight classes
All Classes 35#   50#  70#   UNL#
Two divisions Regular flight classes and traditional classes.
Regular flight
All classes would have a minimum arrow length of 21” with no weight restrictions
Fletches could be made of any natural material and be no less than 1” long and ¼” high
Natural material strings or synthetic strings subject to being voted on. I would be ok with synthetic strings
Any bow could compete in regular flight and would fall into one of 3 categories. Self, composite, and complex composite,
A self bow would be determined as using one piece of wood for the working part of the bow, nock overlays not to exceed 2” in length could be used. Built up handle and fade area would be allowed but not to exceed 12” in length. curfing would not be allowed and would be considered a lamination. In the case of recurves string bridges would be allowed but not to exceed 1” in length. Arrow rests could not exceed 2” in length and any natural material could be used on the arrow rest as long as it was not considered an elevated or breakaway arrow rest.
A composite bow could consist of any number of laminations as long as they are made of the same basic material such as wood or bamboo. The maximum arrow rest length would be limited to 2”and could be of any natural material with no breakaway or elevated rests.
Complex composite could be made using any combination of natural materials in any configuration, arrow rests or overdraws not to exceed 4” from the back of the bow would be allowed.

Traditional flight classes
The intent here is to test bows as they were traditionally designed to be used in either hunting, roving or target situations. I see this as a stepping stone into regular flight and a very important class
Arrow weights would be a minimum of 8 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight.
Arrows would be a minimum of 24” long
Minimum fletch size would be 3”long and 3/8” inches high ( metric equivalent)
Standard field tips would be used if  dull rounded broadheads are not allowed.
Weight would be measured where the tip of the arrow was level with the back of the bow. ( I would prefer a nonsharp broadhead here as it limits the draw length)
Arrow rests could be shot off the hand or any natural material to be used.
Made made string material would be allowed
The classes would include but not limited to , American longbows, English longbows, recurves, yumi bows, Asiatic bows, war bows, tribal type bows ( under 56”) Each class would have a description written. War bows would shoot the traditional arrows they have already established rules on.
The weight class a traditional bow fell into would simply be the class it fell closest to in weight, the grains per pound would equal the playing field.

[Badger]

   Bow descriptions

  American longbow, any straight limbed bow over 56" long that when at rest the tips were not more than 2" behind the back of the bow.

  English longbow, description to be written by ELB experts
 
 Recurves, any bow that when braced the string makes contact with the bow limbs more than 1/2" beyond the nock. Any bow that when at rest the tips of the bow are more than 2" behind the back of the bow.

 Yumi and asiatic bows to be written by experts in the respective fields

War bows, war bow society existing rules will prevail

Tribal bows, any bow under 56".

  I prefer the use of dull rounded broadheads in all traditional classes as a limiter to draw length and a safety device. We could easily have some manufactued for those who did not have the ability to make their own.

  I also would like to allow plastic arrow nocks in the trad classes only but would not be opposed to allowing them in regular flight classes.

[Buckeye Guy]

Steve you are really getting my interest up now
one Question for now define break away rest , would a feather rest be considered breakaway? as it does move with the arrow

[Del the cat]

Some good sound stuff there.
I'd like to query weather the tradition classes should also allow flight arrows?
There is a precedent. At ILAA roving marks shoots they have a flight shot at the end where any wooden arrow may be used.
It's where I got 302 yards with an Elm Warbow.
Don't s'pose it matters too much as I s'pose I could simply have shot the Elm warbow in the unlimited flight class rather than tradition?
But it presumably wouldn't have been very competitive. It would also have saved me the expense of getting/making a "standard" Warbow arrow.

I'm sure I can write a simple proposal for a ELB definition for discussion. I'll set to on it.
Del
PS. There is some argument from some quarters about weather the "standard" warbow arrows are in fact realistic.

[Del the cat]

Here's a first draft of an ELB spec'

Draft ELB Definition   iss1. DH 27/01/15
The bow shall:-
1.   be no less than 5” shorter than the archer (tip to tip).

2.   have a thickness/width  ratio not exceeding 5/8 at any point.

3.   be a single curve along the back (excepting any build up at the grip) at brace and full draw. E.G Reflex less than 2” beyond the back of the unbraced bow is acceptable.
A single curve means all curve must be in the same direction, it may get more or less but must not reverse direction. EG.  No flipped tips or reflex/recurve  visible at brace.
A straight line is not considered to be a curve.

4.   Not have the string contacting limb at any point further  than  2” from the end of the string.

5.   Nocks may be of any natural material and any style unless it is visibly acting as a Siyah, lever or flipped tip. (Note the 2” limit in clause 3)

Flight Class:- The bow may be of self, backed or laminate construction using any timber including bamboo.

Traditional class :- The bow may be of any single timber not including Bamboo (not laminated or backed).
Heat treating,  bending and splicing of billets is acceptable in both classes.

[Badger]

Buckeye, the feather rest is natural and was used in the past. It is very similar to a break away but I still am in favor of it. Not hard for anyone to make either.

Del, we presently have an english longbow class under the present regular flightbow rules. We could simply use that and review the definition of the english longbow. We have had some issues over rounded bellies and horn nocks on the bows that could be addressed by those of you who are more familiar with the bow and what makes it english.

[Badger]

  Del, I posted the same time as you. I really like the rules you laid out, very much so! The only thing I would take exception to would be basing the bow length on the height of the archer. I would consider setting minimum bow lengths in relation to arrow length.

[Badger]

  Del, if you used a 40% rule where arrow had to be no less than 40% bow length I think you would be good. Accurate to the lowest inch. It would encourage the tiller shape to remain more elb like.

[Del the cat]

I like the arrow length no less than 40% of bow length
I think maybe there does need to be a minimum bow length of some sort. I don't think a 6 foot bloke shooting a 4 foot "Longbow" would be right.
Say 5 or 6" less than the archer isn't too restrictive and it wouldn't stop people given bows to kids and ladies to shoot.
Having said that, I'm pretty easy, as a miniature ELB would sort of be cool 

I tried to avoid any rigid cross section definition, but maybe, just to tease Marc we could say all faces must be slightly rounded such that a straight edge will not sit flat across any face without rocking .
Del

[Badger]

  Del, could you simply state a minimum length bow? The 21" arrow rule would limit the shortest bow to 52"?  I would think that is a bit short for a longbow. I have a feeling mark and many others will like your description.

[Badger]

    I am working on putting together a copper rounded broadhead for traditional shooting that should have a head weight of about 70 grains. I am also working on the feasability of putting together a flight station using sliding channel for the weight station and a manual bow press for bracing. I will build my own flight station and keep track of the costs. Once we agree on rules and protocal I plan to do a video actually walking myself through the entire process for training purposes.

    I feel like we are on target to have the rules settled by mid march and then we can go onto the actual organization set up.

[Del the cat]

  Del, could you simply state a minimum length bow? The 21" arrow rule would limit the shortest bow to 52"?  I would think that is a bit short for a longbow. I have a feeling mark and many others will like your description.

I just measured a bow I made for a 12 yr old girl, which was tillered to 28" it was about 65" ntn.
63"  maybe 62"? Would be a reasonable minimum. Much shorter than that and it starts to feel like a shortie.
Del