Calif does it again

[ErictheViking]

excellent article on lead poisoning.
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=1508#top

[JW_Halverson]

That is a great article, especially the quotes from the pro-hunting organizations.

[ErictheViking]

Yep. I was told about it from a friend of mine who I jokingly call a "tree hugging druid". She pointed out a similar article in a magazine called "Wyoming wildlife". I am an avid hunter (bow and rifle) and have switched to all copper for hunting. I don't like people being forced to buy copper only since you can bury the gutpile eliminating this problem as well. The first and best conservationist were/are hunters, I just like the wild too much to be a hindrance to its well being.

[KrisDelger]

JW I understand where you're coming from with protecting the raptors (Especially since mine is a dunce and likes to attack gut piles instead of rabbits) which is why when I take game with a rifle, or shotgun I don't leave a gut pile (I know its gross) but I put all of the guts I pull out into a plastic bag, seal it up and stuff it into my pack, then I transfer it into a cooler in camp, then back at home I bury those guts into my garden (Yep I'm one of those hippy types with a garden get over it).
I still find it upsetting to be required to use steel shot for upland game birds since it beats the heck out of my barrels. (For rifle I generally use copper or preferably turned brass...I'm picky)

Anyway... back into my corner to eat more paste 

[JW_Halverson]

JW I understand where you're coming from with protecting the raptors (Especially since mine is a dunce and likes to attack gut piles instead of rabbits) which is why when I take game with a rifle, or shotgun I don't leave a gut pile (I know its gross) but I put all of the guts I pull out into a plastic bag, seal it up and stuff it into my pack, then I transfer it into a cooler in camp, then back at home I bury those guts into my garden (Yep I'm one of those hippy types with a garden get over it).
I still find it upsetting to be required to use steel shot for upland game birds since it beats the heck out of my barrels. (For rifle I generally use copper or preferably turned brass...I'm picky)

Anyway... back into my corner to eat more paste 

I switched from paste to hide glue.  Doesn't stick to the roof of my mouth!   

[stickbender]

     Ahhh, Governor Moon Beam.......  What a rocket scientist he is.  I think he has been too busy as of late, staring at the little turn table in the microwave, while wearing his tinfoil hat.
     I for one will not use steel shot.  While I mostly agree with the lead debate, I do not agree with the blanket, one size fits all, reactions.  I still use lead shot, and there was for awhile a lot of companies using coated lead shot, but then the bans went nuts.  As for ducks, it mainly is the diving ducks that ingest the lead.  I always cut out a large portion of meat around the wound channel, and that is buried, or bagged, and put in the garbage.  The steel shot will damage your barrel, and it just doesn't have the velocity retaining ability of lead, and nor does it have the same impact, or shock qualities of lead.  It does not expand, on impact.  There are a whole lot more injured, and maimed birds from steel shot, than ever from lead shot.  I will agree with a lead ban in management areas, but again, it is mostly the diving ducks that are affected with eating lead.  There are coatings that are available for lead shot.  We all have our passions with hunting, and non hunting in the outdoors.  I just don't think a state wide ban is necessary.  Put it where the condors, and other raptors are prevalent, not the entire state.  I don't hunt management areas that have a lead ban.  I will not shoot steel in my guns.  The shells are prohibitive in costs, and no near as effective as lead.  Just my personal opinion.  I think a bigger problem would be Mexico's use of DDT on their crops.  DDT doesn't go away.  You can still find lumps of it in the Mississippi river.  Funny we can't use it here, but we can import crops soaked in it.  The animals,and other pests that eat the crops, have it, and the predators that eat those animals have it.  Lead is a toxic product no doubt, but there are ways around that other than steel, or outright bans.

                                                                     Wayne

[bubby]

yeah Wayne I'm with you to a point, I use what's leagal and use steel shot on waterfowl, we have had a lead ban in the condor zones for years, the funny thing about this is lead won't be banned for target shooting at gun ranges, the areas that will have the highest concentrations of lead, last I read they were still having trouble with DDT in some areas of condor range, as far as moonbeam he's to worried about building his legacy, aka the bullet train but I wont get into that mess, bub

[JW_Halverson]

     Ahhh, Governor Moon Beam.......  What a rocket scientist he is.  I think he has been too busy as of late, staring at the little turn table in the microwave, while wearing his tinfoil hat.
     I for one will not use steel shot.  While I mostly agree with the lead debate, I do not agree with the blanket, one size fits all, reactions.  I still use lead shot, and there was for awhile a lot of companies using coated lead shot, but then the bans went nuts.  As for ducks, it mainly is the diving ducks that ingest the lead.  I always cut out a large portion of meat around the wound channel, and that is buried, or bagged, and put in the garbage.  The steel shot will damage your barrel, and it just doesn't have the velocity retaining ability of lead, and nor does it have the same impact, or shock qualities of lead.  It does not expand, on impact.  There are a whole lot more injured, and maimed birds from steel shot, than ever from lead shot.  I will agree with a lead ban in management areas, but again, it is mostly the diving ducks that are affected with eating lead.  There are coatings that are available for lead shot.  We all have our passions with hunting, and non hunting in the outdoors.  I just don't think a state wide ban is necessary.  Put it where the condors, and other raptors are prevalent, not the entire state.  I don't hunt management areas that have a lead ban.  I will not shoot steel in my guns.  The shells are prohibitive in costs, and no near as effective as lead.  Just my personal opinion.  I think a bigger problem would be Mexico's use of DDT on their crops.  DDT doesn't go away.  You can still find lumps of it in the Mississippi river.  Funny we can't use it here, but we can import crops soaked in it.  The animals,and other pests that eat the crops, have it, and the predators that eat those animals have it.  Lead is a toxic product no doubt, but there are ways around that other than steel, or outright bans.

                                                                     Wayne

Steel shot in shotshells is comparable to lead shot pricewise.  There are premium lead rounds that are actually more expensive than average steel prices, but what you are doing there is comparing a Ferrari to a Dodge Caravan, too.  As far as ammo prices in rifle rounds, this is also true.  The copper ammo that you are looking at is premium ammo and comparing it to run of the mill ammo is not a fair comparison.  Premium trophy grade lead core ammo is more expensive quite often than the quality copper ammo.  And most of us do not use a half a box of shells in a hunting season, so the cost per deer (or antelope, elk, axis deer, collared peccary, or wascally wabbit) really is negligable.  Buy one less six pack of craft beer and you saved the difference and then some.  In the grand scheme of hunting, the ammunition is really the smallest part of the bill.

As for coatings for lead shot, that's like painting your windows white and putting a coat over your head to protect from nuclear fallout.  Lead shot in the bird's crop gets ground with the grit in their diet and they digest it whether it is copper clad or not. It's a gimmick.

If you don't like steel, I can't blame you.  There is better non-lead ammo out there.  Many of the non-lead alternatives now are even superior to lead, tighter patterning, greater sectional density, better retained energy, etc. 

And I agree with the ban being a bad choice.  All it is doing is making people so mad they will not listen to the science.  In the end, I bet it does more to set back conservation than improve it. 

[4dog]

it always does    ^^^^^

[Onebowonder]

<snip>In the end, I bet it does more to set back conservation than improve it.

It seems that whatever we oblige Government to do for us, will invaribly be done in the most expensive, least effective, and most freedom depriving manner possible.

OneBow

[JW_Halverson]

And that is why I made the conscious choice to switch to non-lead ammunition or in the case of my flintlock, make the effort to either carry out the gutpile or bury it deep on the spot.  MY ammunition will not contribute to sick or dead birds of prey. No one is telling me to do it, I am a conservationist, I do it because it is the right thing to do.

[bubby]

but you had the choice jdub, you made the decision, therein lies the differance

[JW_Halverson]

Yes, I made that choice because I could not ignore the facts and the problems associated with lead in the environment.  It was an easy choice, it was simply the right thing to do.  But what about those that are aware of the problem and do not chose to do something about it?

[4dog]

they should be forced??     cause im sure the folks makin the laws follow all of them..slippery slope j dub.

[JW_Halverson]

they should be forced??     cause im sure the folks makin the laws follow all of them..slippery slope j dub.

That opens the discussion between legal and ethical.  Laws tend to get passed when not enough people are following the ethical pathway.  Once upon a time we hunters were allowed to take as many game animals as we wanted (not needed...WANTED).  Eventually, it became evident that numbers were crashing and in some cases some game was completely gone.  Laws had to be passed because people did not willingly rein themselves in. 

Teddy Roosevelt, one of the killingest hunters out there (read about the game killing spree he went on in the Yellowstone area after the death of his wife) was one of the loudest to shout in favor of game reservations, later called National Parks, and for seasons and limits for hunting.

This is the opportunity for the conservation and hunting community to step up to the plate and make the meaningful changes ourselves.  If we leave it to the anti-hunting community to push legislation you get what California has.  California was your wake-up call.

Copper rifle rounds are different than lead, always better than bargain ammo, and often better than premium lead ammo.  Why not see what you can do?