Arg,... How to tell good hickory lumber from bad hickory lumber...?

[toomanyknots]

I just got done resawing like 40 backings out from a couple pieces of 8 quarter hickory flatsaw boards. The grain down the side of the board is very straight, so it is basically makes very good quality quarter sawn hickory backings. Or at least I thought. It is mostly heartwood, and not very dense compared to some all sapwood hickory I have used in the past, but other than that I thought I had some good stuff.... Or so I thought, until I broke my third bow in a row. I thought I had a bad glue up with the first two, but it is definitely the backings. All garbage, spent like 110 bucks and had to deal with getting talked to like crap by the guys at the lumber yard for simply wanting to look at the boards instead of just picking up one. My woodslicer blade is shot after resawing all the hickory too. All bows broke before I could even get a decent long string tiller going. I am so pissed it is not even funny.  So I guess I have to find something for backings now. I gotta sell one of my guitars to do so, which I am not super happy about, so I really wanna find a piece or something that will work. I don't know where I am going to find any, as the place I went to, most of the hickory I was looking at looked the same, and both of the boards I got were garbage. I have no idea why they were so weak in tension. The hickory I have had in the past that was great, was all white sapwood and pretty dense. I still have a piece of the stuff, bends like rubber. This stuff I bought recently starts to make little cracking sounds as soon as you bend it a little bit. Arg. I am thinking of trying a piece of 6 quarter flat sawn ash or maple ( with straight grain down the side) but I really don't know what to look for.

[ionicmuffin]

maple is probably a safe bet, and i would imagine that ash would be a decent bet as well. white oak doesn't break easy but is definitely not super strong in tension. How about bamboo? you can buy 25 for about what you spent and they all are like 1.75 inches wide by like 6 ft long and i doubt you would have any issues with bamboo. With that in mind the purchase of bulk bamboo would run you around 6$ per backing, so if that's worth it to you then maybe consider that? Up to you.

[Bryce]

white oak doesn't break easy but is definitely not super strong in tension.

It's not? Since when?

[ionicmuffin]

um, well i should say its not as strong as hickory, unless I'm mistaken... could be that, I've been known to be wrong time and again...  I guess i should point out that Bryce has a bow that has been overdrawn to 36 inches(or somewhere crazy over what its supposed to be) and it hasn't broken. It's white oak and its like what 60 lbs? something like that. So I guess it wont break, idk it's not as good as hickory(or at least that was my impression)

[toomanyknots]

maple is probably a safe bet, and i would imagine that ash would be a decent bet as well. white oak doesn't break easy but is definitely not super strong in tension. How about bamboo? you can buy 25 for about what you spent and they all are like 1.75 inches wide by like 6 ft long and i doubt you would have any issues with bamboo. With that in mind the purchase of bulk bamboo would run you around 6$ per backing, so if that's worth it to you then maybe consider that? Up to you.

Thank you for the links Ionicmuffin, I appreciate it!

um, well i should say its not as strong as hickory, unless I'm mistaken... could be that, I've been known to be wrong time and again...  I guess i should point out that Bryce has a bow that has been overdrawn to 36 inches(or somewhere crazy over what its supposed to be) and it hasn't broken. It's white oak and its like what 60 lbs? something like that. So I guess it wont break, idk it's not as good as hickory(or at least that was my impression)

Ya, I have some quartersawn white oak that is garbage too,  . Might be better than this hickory, but it is pretty brittle too. Haven't tried it on a bow yet, but bend tests are not good. What are they deep frying this wood anymore? I know it ain't the humidity, it is like a sauna it is so humid over here right now. Man, I am so tired of driving like 100 miles to look through a hundred boards and find like two, and then they still don't work.

[Badger]

 Unless I understould you wrong I think you sawed down the wrong end of the board, You want it 1/4 sawn with the grain runnng down the back of the board not the side of the board. You can almost ignore the side of a board if the lines are running straight down the back.

[toomanyknots]

Unless I understould you wrong I think you sawed down the wrong end of the board, You want it 1/4 sawn with the grain runnng down the back of the board not the side of the board. You can almost ignore the side of a board if the lines are running straight down the back.

No, I sawed the straight grain on the side, it was flatsawn.

[ionicmuffin]

so you turned it into rift sawn lumber?

[vinemaplebows]

um, well i should say its not as strong as hickory, unless I'm mistaken... could be that, I've been known to be wrong time and again...  I guess i should point out that Bryce has a bow that has been overdrawn to 36 inches(or somewhere crazy over what its supposed to be) and it hasn't broken. It's white oak and its like what 60 lbs? something like that. So I guess it wont break, idk it's not as good as hickory(or at least that was my impression)
[/quote

White oak will break AFTER hickory in a lot of cases. I have some white oak backing I am picking up from a mill very soon, hickory is not impossible for me to get, but the oak is a heck of a lot closer.

VMB

[toomanyknots]

so you turned it into rift sawn lumber?

Yes, upon the advice of folks on here, I resawed the straight grain sides. So I guess it would of been some rift and some quarter sawn. I would of got like 70 or more backings for 110 bucks if the wood wasn't crap.

White oak will break AFTER hickory in a lot of cases. I have some white oak backing I am picking up from a mill very soon, hickory is not impossible for me to get, but the oak is a heck of a lot closer.

VMB

What I am trying to figure out, is how to be sure it is good stuff before you buy it, whether oak or hickory. I can find decent quarter sawn white oak everywhere, but the piece I bought ended up being brittle and easy to break. I am not sure it will be suitable for even a light bow. And the hickory I bought wouldn't even hold to floor tiller a 40 lb-ish bow. I mean it is horrible. I didn't even think to bend test it, as I have always heard hickory is great in tension, and have always had nothing but the best results with it. I have had no problem using hickory for warbow backings in the past. This stuff wouldn't make a kids bow. Is denser better in both oak and hickory? I mean, will denser oak be more tension strong? The darker colored white oak seems to be not good in tension.

[ionicmuffin]

yeah, density is what im thinking you will have to look for, super dense pieces with as little early wood as you can get.

[Bryce]

White oak breaks after hickory.


Edit* hey Brian beat me too it 

[DarkSoul]

Toomanyknots, I'm quite puzzled as to why you have 'brittle' or weak white oak and hickory. These two woods are about THE best woods in tension! Of course there can always be one board that is just iffy due to fungus or what else. But it appears you've used several boards, from various suppliers, all without any positive effects? I'm sorry to say this mate but it sounds like it could be a problem YOU are creating! Hickory and oak are difficult to mess up for a lumber yard. Especially in the USA, close to the source, the wood should be properly handled and properly dried.
Could you post a few pictures maybe? One of the end grain so we can see the rings, and one of the face of the board. Perhaps the grain isn't as straight as you thought? Perhaps it has some discoloration that could be due to fungus? I don't know, but I'm having a hard time believing that you bought weak wood in several occasions with several species and several suppliers. How did you determine the wood to be weak, low density and brittle? Try to make a simple selfbow / boardbow first and rule out several things. Do a bend test and measure the SG accurately. Measure temperature and humidity of the room where you store the wood to rule out a less than perfect MC of the wood.

[twisted hickory]

Might i suggest just cutting down a tree and starting from staves? I have had great luck with that
Greg

[toomanyknots]

Toomanyknots, I'm quite puzzled as to why you have 'brittle' or weak white oak and hickory. These two woods are about THE best woods in tension! Of course there can always be one board that is just iffy due to fungus or what else. But it appears you've used several boards, from various suppliers, all without any positive effects?

Like I said, it was 2 boards of hickory from one supplier. I have never had a problem with hickory before. And one piece of white oak (which, like I said, I haven't even made a bow out of yet,). Both are very brittle and break easily when bend testing just a backing. Just to confirm this yall, is sapwood hickory better than heartwood hickory? It seems to me to be better?