What Is Primitive REALLY ?

[Dances with squirrels]

I'm with Pat. I understand primitive archery equipment to be made with primitive materials, by primitive methods, by primitive man. What we're making, utilizing modern tools, including things like artificial lighting and heat, modern-made tools, even a bench vice, the internet for reference, etc. could never be considered primitive in true sense. It's not primitive simply because it's made of natural materials. I also agree with others above that just because it IS primitive, doesn't inherently mean it's crude.

[JackCrafty]

Just a few questions for the guys who think that "primitive" is not only in the design and materials, but in the tools and the mentality of the maker.  Let's stir the pot a bit.   

What is the difference between a rasp and a rough rock?  Between a sanding sponge and a handful of rough grass?  In my view, there is one difference:  efficiency.

Does "primitive" mean that we have to be less efficient?  If yes, then why don't we just use dull knives and worn out saw blades to make our stuff?  Because that would be stupid?  Or does primitive mean that we have to do it the "old" way?  If yes, then where do we draw the line?  Maybe we should use the tools contemporary to the item being reproduced?  If yes, then where is the reliable information and hard archeological data?

What about people who believe the earth is less that 7000 years old (or even younger)?  Can they understand what "primitive" means?  Does mentality even need to enter the picture?

Why don't we keep it simple as say that only the guys who are willing to go into the wilderness with nothing but the knowledge in their heads, buckskins for clothing, pemmican for food, sticks for making fire, and stone tools for making things are the ones making "primitive" archery equipment?  And the rest of us wannabees can go pound sand?

Or maybe it's possible to define "truly primitive" in a way that is more inclusive.  You know, less elitist.  (I hope Iwoabow will jump on this one)

[JeremiahVires]

Primitive is coooool!
 

[Roy]

I'm 64 years old and on certain days I feel primitive...

How anyone makes their bows is only up to them to decide. I don't need to prove to anyone I make primitive bows, only that I make my own wooden bows.

[Bryce]

When ppl think 'primitive' I think that Stone Age tools jump into there minds.

[richardzane]

jackcrafty ,hey, good points ( and yes , i've seen your points!  )
its probably easier to agree on what IS NOT primitive. start at the extremes of High tech and go from there.
but it seems "primitive" is always gonna be a grey area word.

on the tool issue though :
there may (or may not) be much in the way of efficiency between a hand full of certain grass and a sanding sponge
BUT the handful of grass requires only a knowledge and ones ability to harvest the material.
while the manufacture of a sanding sponge requires machinery, factories, advertising, and petroleum-based technology that's anything but "primitive."
So, that might be a agreed upon difference. When we use these products (as we all do) we're still "plugged-in" to the machine, so to speak.

learning to do without "the machine" for some of us is important...even if its not essential.

[JackCrafty]

Bryce, what tools were available during the stone ages?  I have a pretty god idea but what do you think?

[JackCrafty]

Richard, would it be OK if I made a sanding sponge out of a real sponge covered with pitch glue and then dipped in sand?  What if there was a special "trade" for making such items?

(I get your point, just want to know where to draw the line   )

[Bryce]

I'm gonna guess stone.....perchaps?
I've only ever studied PNW cultures, so that all I got in my hand lol
They did have copper.
Willing to learn.

Richard, would it be OK if I made a sanding sponge out of a real sponge covered with pitch glue and then dipped in sand?  What if there was a special "trade" for making such items?

(I get your point, just want to know where to draw the line   )

Or a piece of leather dipped in hide glue/pitch and rubbed though the sand and then some finer clay sediment. You know for that satin finish

[JackCrafty]

I'm gonna guess stone.....perchaps?

Good guess!!    I assume that PNW stands for Pacific North West?

Anyway, most people don't realize that the "stone ages" overlap with the use of metal tools in many areas around the world and in many stone age cultures.  Ishi is a good case and point.  These transitional time periods are basically ignored in discussions like this.   Much to my dismay. 

[blackhawk]

I've thought and pondered hard many a time on this subject,and have seen many a post,opinion,and others thoughts on it,and I still don't know the definition of it......but what I do know is that I love this earths materials and gathering them, and making all types of things from it with my own hands 

[richardzane]

Jack
sorry, i was out cutting firewood (with my high-tech chain saw) till i got rained out of the woods
you are right about stone age overlapping metal ages. It even happened here in this country. The first trade axes
that ended up at my ancestors villages in Ontario look like they were painstakingly cut apart and used for wedges , or anvils?
stone axes seemed good enough, and they did use sheet hammered copper nuggets for various things.

Folks can agree about what's NOT "primitive."
example, at a "Primitive Cornstalk Shoot"
bows with training wheels(love that) ,sights, weights and balances, fiberglass etc.carbon arrows with plastic vanes, wouldn't be allowed
alongside selfbows with dogbane or sinew string and shoot arrows. someone or some persons would have to draw those lines.
Of course another category could be made for "Traditional" with their own rules, maybe even allowing POC arrows and plastic knocks.

Metal is going to be around for a long time . Even with a meltdown of society and no more plastic sponge factories!
I doubt we'll ever be without finding metal around. scrounging metal for points or knives maybe an act of necessity.
By then no one'll care whats "primitive," technologies will emerge that'll enhance the survival of our families.
Maybe ocean sponges with pitch and grit, might become one of the better tools around!
but we do need to familiarize ourselves with handtools.....cuz when the power is off...we can't stop living.

[Dances with squirrels]

I think folks might have a more objective view about what IS primitive if they'd not concern themselves or their equipment with BEING primitive.

[Marks]

When ppl think 'primitive' I think that Stone Age tools jump into there minds.

I think there is some primitive living and hunting going on around the world today. Places like the Amazon and Africa and plenty of other areas have people living what i would consider primitive lives.
Primitive is a relative term. How primitive is primitive can be discussed all day but lucky for me I really don't care that much. I'm just here to have a good time and learn to make bows. I'm sitting here at my desk on my computer in the air conditioning. There isn't very much about me thats primitive. you can define what I'm doing by whatever word you want. I'm not doing it for the definition. It has been an interesting read even though I'm not reading it thru cave painting.

[Bryce]

When ppl think 'primitive' I think that Stone Age tools jump into there minds.

I think there is some primitive living and hunting going on around the world today. Places like the Amazon and Africa and plenty of other areas have people living what i would consider primitive lives.
Primitive is a relative term. How primitive is primitive can be discussed all day but lucky for me I really don't care that much. I'm just here to have a good time and learn to make bows. I'm sitting here at my desk on my computer in the air conditioning. There isn't very much about me thats primitive. you can define what I'm doing by whatever word you want. I'm not doing it for the definition. It has been an interesting read even though I'm not reading it thru cave painting.

Yes I know