What Is Primitive REALLY ?

[IsaacW]

Great conversation piece but ultimately a bit silly.  Primitive is a relative word and nowhere defined really means stone tools, furs, etc.

Merriam Webster...
Definition of PRIMITIVE

1
a : not derived : original, primary
b : assumed as a basis; especially : axiomatic <primitive concepts>
2
a : of or relating to the earliest age or period : primeval <the primitive church>
b : closely approximating an early ancestral type : little evolved <primitive mammals>
c : belonging to or characteristic of an early stage of development : crude, rudimentary <primitive technology>
d : of, relating to, or constituting the assumed parent speech of related languages <primitive Germanic>
3
a : elemental, natural <our primitive feelings of vengeance — John Mackwood>
b : of, relating to, or produced by a people or culture that is nonindustrial and often nonliterate and tribal <primitive art>
c : naive
d (1) : self-taught, untutored <primitive craftsmen> (2) : produced by a self-taught artist <a primitive painting>
— prim·i·tive·ly adverb
— prim·i·tive·ness noun
— prim·i·tiv·i·ty  noun
 See primitive defined for English-language learners »
See primitive defined for kids »
Examples of PRIMITIVE

the time when primitive man first learned to use fire
The technology they used was primitive and outdated.
The camp had only a primitive outdoor toilet.
Origin of PRIMITIVE

Middle English primitif, from Latin primitivus first formed, from primitiae first fruits, from primus first — more at prime
First Known Use: 14th century
Related to PRIMITIVE

Synonyms
crude, low, rude, rudimentary
Antonyms
advanced, developed, evolved, high, higher, late
Related Words
basic, simple, uncomplicated; homely, homespun, unsophisticated; early, embryonic, primeval, primordial; backward, underdeveloped, undeveloped; aged, ancient, antediluvian, antiquated, antique, dated, fusty, hoary, musty, obsolete, old, oldfangled, old-fashioned, old-time, out-of-date, outworn, passé, past, quaint, unmodernized
Near Antonyms
complex, complicated, intricate, involved, sophisticated; full-blown, grown, mature, matured, perfected, ripe, ripened; civilized, cultivated, enlightened, refined; contemporary, current, latest, mod, modern, modernistic, new, newfangled, new-fashioned, novel, now, present-day, space-age, state-of-the-art, supermodern, ultramodern, up-to-date

This being said... there are a variety of options.  One I think is interesting is when looking at "primitive" as often used today in American English as simply meaning old and out of date.  In this regard, MOST Americans (although likely not a single one of us) would call this bow primitive...



I hunt often with a flintlock (and sometimes a matchlock) smoothbore.  Most consider this dreadfully primitive, but it is VERY hi-tech compared to most of what we are talking about here.

Heck, MOST Americans would consider this primitive (although I do not even have this tech., myself)...

[darodalaf]

By definition that phone -is- primitive in the context of mobile phones. It is -not- primitive in the context of communications technology since it is far more advanced than the telegraph.

I see no problem with referring to bows designed along the styles and principles of the earliest bows on record, ie. Stellmoor, Holmegaard et al., or the latest bows made along said styles and principles, ie. pre-contact American bows, as 'Primitive' regardless of whether it was made with a bandsaw or a sharp rock, since the qualifying factor is the form and function of the bow itself.

A primitive bow is a different subject from primitive bow -making- methods. In my opinion.

[Marks]

I now see Primitive as an encompassing word. I personally started by thinking materials are what make it primitive. Some have stated methods and tools. Others go for the historically accurate design. 
I'm starting to think we are all right. Just like Archery includes primitive, traditional, and even compound bows, Primitive archery is a spectrum and not just a single meaning. There is a place in Primitive for all of us. Some of us are less primitive than others but if this is an 'exclusive' club then I want out. I like it here because it is inclusive.

[RyanY]

For me, I feel I make primitive bows with modern techniques. If I had enough experience with primitive tools then I don't see what would keep me from producing the same product if I really wanted to take the time to do so. So the act of building the bow is not primitive but the bow itself fits within the category of being a primitive weapon... Except for the string. 

[IsaacW]

By definition that phone -is- primitive in the context of mobile phones. It is -not- primitive in the context of communications technology since it is far more advanced than the telegraph.

Indeed.... point is that it is all relevant.  A "primitive" bow made with stone tools etc. is still more hi -tech and "advanced" than an atlatl, or even more a hand thrown spear, or even a a stone thrown.

A primitive bow is a different subject from primitive bow -making- methods. In my opinion.

Totally agreed!

[iowabow]

Going to start this up again because it is a great topic.
Question 1 if an arrowhead made from chert is produced by a CNC machine and it looks just like an artifact is the item primitive. If I hunt with it can I be consider as a primitive archer. Is it the produce that matters or process.

We now have 3D printers. If a bow was printed using wood fiber and the design was "primitive is it primitive.

I think we can agree that process is important in that we don't cross a line.

What is that line in primitive archery when we call foul. Well to answer that I will try to break it down like this.
A bow has two sticks string and maybe feathers and glue.
 
Lets start with the string...yes I can male a make a milkweed string without the aid of modern tools
The arrow shaft easily made from dogwood with chert flakes.
Pine pitch easy made primitive
Stone point abo easy
Feather cut and tied easy no problem

Now that bow needs a little sand paper and the snake grass works just as good so that's easy
Cutting the tree down easy...watched a guy at skunk river knapin do it with stone tools and it only took 10 extra minutes to cut a 8 inch log compared to steel. Stone tools are very efficient and better than iron hehe (set both tools down on the ground then come back 20 years later and try cutting down a tree. Which one will do it after you put new handles on both). So the different tool different bow is out. I think when I build mine I will build multi high quality tools and just keep discarding till the job is complete. For example I will make 20 flint scrapers and when it dulls I will just grab another. And for reducing the sides a couple hand axes should make it a short job. I think they just worked smarter not harder. Also we think in terms of an island and being the only person. It is more likely that the labor was divided. Maybe the lady two huts down made your string because that's all she was capable of doing
Anyway I think in terms of substitution.
Example ...snake grass works great so sand paper is not "cheating"
Cutting down milkweed with a flint or steel knife equal in my book
After watching the stone axe demo darn near equal and the steel axe being a non-superior tool (hehe) that's fair. 

[Joec123able]

The bows that are posted on this site are only made in "primitive " designs every one on here uses modern materials and tools to make there bows which is perfectly fine

[richardzane]

I like this topic.
any definitions of "primitive" can be problematic
another question might involve harvesting and the place of fabrication of your stone age bow or arrows.
Is it stone-age primitive if you drive in an auto to get rock, or have UPS deliver flint to your door?
"stone age Primitive" to work in a garage with electric lights or even with safety glasses on?
and how are you obtaining your sinew, sap, etc.. driving again?

we are still pretty addicted to our comforts(and love our internet!)

10,000 yr old stone tools and lifeways we'd call "primitive", but for those living then, it was cutting edge technology.
so seems "primitive" tends to be defined from hindsight...looking backwards.

I don't try to define "primitive" I just have a bent towards using things that are found or where little money is involved,foraging,scrounging,
and creating something from what is on hand. I also like to be able to KNOW how my ancestors survived and thrived,and know by experiencing their techniques...but cheating a little along the way.

[adb]

Primitive does not = crude.

[JW_Halverson]

I was not overly impressed with this thread when it started.  The original poster held himself out as a purist and how steel tools were not as pure as stone tools. And then he stopped posting right after Gun Doc pointed out his love of artificial sinew in the post immediately before he posted how he was "too much of purist to hear the word varnish on a primitive bow".

This whole thread was his uninating contest, wherein he picked and chose the rules himself.  His username TatankaOhitika translates as "BuffaloHeart".  I could be wrong, my Lakota is very limited and rusty.  Those now famous horse bows of the Sioux were most likely universally manufactured with the steel tools he decried as not primitive enough.  (And for all his love of bendy handled bows, a 5 curve really doesn't bend in the grip!) Knives, hatchets, axes, rasps, files, etc are all documented trade goods that the Plains Tribes highly valued.  If you are going to be a purist, be a purist with some semblance of historical acuracy.

Note the original poster didn't stick around long and never posted a single photo of his work.  He posted from May 4, 2013 until June 3, 2013. 

[iowabow]

Wow jw good history on that last post.

[burchett.donald]

Would you say Otzi the Ice Man was primitive? How about his bow? I wonder if he used his copper axe to rough out the stave or as a scraper? Just wanted to blow the stone tool theory out the door, you don't have to use stone tools to be primitive. Now with that said in my humble opinion I like my bows to have or be made of all natural materials, including the string. I guess we all have our own way...

   
                        JW, you are correct and As I said before Otzi was using metal and so was someone before him.

[Don Case]

Attach what meaning you want, as long as the end result is cool. In the immortal words of John Lennon," It's just words."
 

[Joec123able]

I was not overly impressed with this thread when it started.  The original poster held himself out as a purist and how steel tools were not as pure as stone tools. And then he stopped posting right after Gun Doc pointed out his love of artificial sinew in the post immediately before he posted how he was "too much of purist to hear the word varnish on a primitive bow".

This whole thread was his uninating contest, wherein he picked and chose the rules himself.  His username TatankaOhitika translates as "BuffaloHeart".  I could be wrong, my Lakota is very limited and rusty.  Those now famous horse bows of the Sioux were most likely universally manufactured with the steel tools he decried as not primitive enough.  (And for all his love of bendy handled bows, a 5 curve really doesn't bend in the grip!) Knives, hatchets, axes, rasps, files, etc are all documented trade goods that the Plains Tribes highly valued.  If you are going to be a purist, be a purist with some semblance of historical acuracy.

Note the original poster didn't stick around long and never posted a single photo of his work.  He posted from May 4, 2013 until June 3, 2013.

He hasn't posted on his YouTube channel either since around his last time on here so this post has nothing to do with why he hasn't been on It's something else

[richardzane]

I'd guess Ozti the Iceman would have defended his tools as made from the current technologies
he was aware of. He probably wasn't some weekend reinactor  trying to make "primitive" weapons