Hard to dry woods

[Elktracker]

Ill have to try this with a chunk of ocean spray thanks VineMaplebows I was watching a tv show that john strunk did allong time ago I think it was called the Northwest hunter and he took two guys out into the woods and harvested VM and made bows from it, he mentioned in that video about submerging the staves in a creek for a month or so and coming back and getting it. I will have to ask him about it and get his take on it.

Blacktail I still havent tried the salt water submersion yet but I will, I was down at the dock about a week ago and found a spot I cant secure the stave to that would work well i think. I went out and got some Vine Maple today and plan on going out again in the next day or two so I will set one aside for this.

Bryce the problem I see with doing multiple staves is it wouldnt be a very accurate test as every piece of wood is different wish we had one someone who knew more about it, interesting indeed

Josh

that show sounds good do you know if there any way to watch it on the internet??? Thanks alot

I searched for it on the internet and couldnt find it so I asked john about it and he said he had it recorded and then he loaded me up with a bunch of VHS videos of interviews with him and different classes and shows he did, I really enjoyed them and want to figure out how to record them to dvd if he gives me permision. I tried contacting the northwest hunter on facebook with no reply and did some searches and didnt find it.

He also had a recorded video of Joe St Charles giving a tour of his museum and archery shop where he shows every item in the shop and gives details about them and the makers of around 40 bows and a ton of arrows and other stuff, its very interesting. I will see if John cares if I copy them and maybe share them .

Josh

[Gus]

Storing fresh cut logs in water has been on my mind quite a bit lately.
I was thinking that it might have a positive side effect of keeping
the cursed bores from from getting going as fast if at all without using pesticides.

Unfortunately I don't a have access to a suitable stock tank to use for this test.
And my buddy already told me not to even look at his saltwater swimming pool...
So I'll have to put off any testing until my situation changes.

As salt tends to draw out moisture it will be interesting to see if checking becomes a problem.

Cool Thread!

-gus

[JackCrafty]

I agree with Mark.  Cracks occur when the outside wood dries faster (and shrinks faster) than the inside wood.

Drying wood so it can be used to make things is actually a science.  It has been engineered to death and no study that I have ever seen recommends adding water to the wood before drying it.  In fact, my personal experience has shown that adding water to the wood increases the chances of cracking while drying.  Why do you think it's advantageous to harvest wood when the "sap is down"?

This reminds me of the urban legend that states that water will freeze faster if you warm it up first.

[JW_Halverson]

The only advantage I can see is keeping bugs out of it until you can properly deal with it.  And even then only as a very temporary remedy.  But do not construe that I am telling you to not experiment.  Actually the opposite is true.  I would love to see someone take a log, split in fourths, two in the soup, two cured in the more traditional manner, and eventually four bows of the same design and draw weight as possible be made. 

If all we were interested in were the tried and true, this would flat be BORING ME TO DEATH.   

[vinemaplebows]

Jack,

             You are pointing out why I think it has merit.....Is wood from the center of trees alive??? Or is it dead material? second, wood that has more moisture content would therefore loose water quicker...wouldn't it??? Especially on the interior of the wood, where there can be several inches there would be various moisture content? Cutting while sap is down would refer to water transportating through the cambium layer, when plants or trees are dorment. Either way interesting converstation.

            Get your rabbits yet???

Brian

[RBLusthaus]

I too agree with Marc - due to the sap wood drying (and shrinking) faster than the heart wood, it is unable to shrink without cracking.  This is why, when cutting fresh non white wood staves, I just cut them overly long (eight feet) and allow them to dry outdoors without sealing them at all.  The ends do split a little, but the splits rarely end up in the usable heart wood and rarely go so far into the stave where it cant be cut off. 

I have heard of submerging the wood in lake for a week or two - but that was to hydrate it to better facilitate a steam bend or a bend by splitting.

Russ

[Bryce]

i was thinking more of hacking up the same stave into 4 pieces.

It is a good idea and i am sure there is plenty of merit in trying, but, as said above each stave is different, even in the same log. I woul dbe willing to try anything as some woods are just a plain nightmare to dry.

even still its gonna be your best bet. if you wanted to get real picky your could record temperature, wind speed--> chill factors. humidity, air pressure run the water through density testing and GCMS machine for trace components, HP testing, digital laser caliper to measure each individual check mark, every single variable to be super thorough. but come on thats way to complicated and would take days sitting in a lab measure and testing.

[JackCrafty]

Brian, nope...haven't got the rabbits yet but I will.   Thanks for asking!

As for your question: "second, wood that has more moisture content would therefore loose water quicker...wouldn't it???", the answer is no.  The factors that effect the rate of the loss of water in the wood are:  relative humidity, temperature, and air flow.

The center of the tree is dead, that is true.  However, it is wet due to capillary action.  It's just as wet at the rest of the tree.  In fact, the heartwood's main purpose is to store water.

[JW_Halverson]

Brian, nope...haven't got the rabbits yet but I will.   Thanks for asking!

As for your question: "second, wood that has more moisture content would therefore loose water quicker...wouldn't it???", the answer is no.  The factors that effect the rate of the loss of water in the wood are:  relative humidity, temperature, and air flow.

The center of the tree is dead, that is true.  However, it is wet due to capillary action.  It's just as wet at the rest of the tree.  In fact, the heartwood's main purpose is to store water.

The only part of a tree that is alive is the cambium just beneath the bark and the leaves.  Everything else is dead.  The larger the tree, the higher the dead/live ratio.  The live part of a tree is really quite a minor component.  Trees are almost a sort of zombie plant.  The zombie infection is prolly related to our overwhelming addiction to making bows.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[vinemaplebows]

  Jw, is right....heres a link...read about heartwood   http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/tree/rings.html   

    Jack, in a kiln they heat wood, to remove water as well as inject steam to keep the wood at a given rate of moisture loss....direct heat without any water will lead to extensive warpage, and cracking. This is what I was told by a Weyerhauser worker.

Brian

[JackCrafty]

Hmmm...this has become a contest of who knows more about trees.  I'm game.

The link provides information that appears factual and elementary.  In fact, it is... from an elementary school.

More advanced reading can be had at the various university websites like the one below:

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/forestry/tree_biology/101.html

JW, A tree contains more living tissue than simply the cambium layer and the leaves.

Brian, injecting steam into a kiln's atmosphere is not the same as adding water to the wood.  And heat without humidity will not always lead to warping and cracking.  Drying thin veneer is one example.  "Fire hardening" or "tempering" is another.

Your turn.

[Bryce]

Hmmm...this has become a contest of who knows more about trees.  I'm game.

The link provides information that appears factual and elementary.  In fact, it is... from an elementary school.

More advanced reading can be had at the various university websites like the one below:

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/forestry/tree_biology/101.html

JW, A tree contains more living tissue than simply the cambium layer and the leaves.

Brian, injecting steam into a kiln's atmosphere is not the same as adding water to the wood.  And heat without humidity will not always lead to warping and cracking.  Drying thin veneer is one example.  "Fire hardening" or "tempering" is another.

Your turn.

Love it

[Justin Snyder]

I was told that steam was used in the kiln to keep the moisture high until the kiln hits a certain temperature. Once it hits that temp the wood can be dried without the excessive checking or warping.

[bcbull]

guys very intreasting  i just remberd a couple years ago a guy wrote a artical about the salt water way i cannot rember if it was in p a or trade world im gonna have a look thru back issues and see if i can find it  i think it d be some good readin for us who are intreasted in it if anyone knows chime in brock

[Elktracker]

guys very intreasting  i just remberd a couple years ago a guy wrote a artical about the salt water way i cannot rember if it was in p a or trade world im gonna have a look thru back issues and see if i can find it  i think it d be some good readin for us who are intreasted in it if anyone knows chime in brock

Let us know if you find it I would like to check it out as well.

Found this on a search on water seasoning. http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-Principles/451-Water-Seasoning.html

Alot of different perspectives here as well on water seasoning http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/14700


Josh