Author Topic: bow woods willow?  (Read 40179 times)

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ratty

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bow woods willow?
« on: July 28, 2006, 09:17:22 am »
 hello all im after a little advice :-\

ive made 2 bows of white ash and i have a nice piece of oak waiting to be worked ;)

but my question is i have the opportunity to get my hands on some willow. :)

my question is can a bow be made from willow? :-\

i have seen arrows made from this but only heard rumours of bows made from it and i cant find any reference of anyone making one from willow on the internet.

what do you think? :-\
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 09:19:48 am by ratty »

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 11:38:34 am »
You could possibly make a bow from willow, but if I could find anything else , I wouldn't use it. It's marginal bow wood at best. Some southwestern tribes made bows from willow because that was all they had, but they were made with intentionally deflexed tips to reduce strain and keep them from breaking. Tim Baker wrote in one of the Bowyer's Bibles about making a willow bow as an experiment because it was "about the worst possible stave choice, being weak in both compression and tension, as well as low in elasticity." To get a decent 35# bow from it, he had to make it 68" long, decrown it for a perfectly rectangular cross section,  and make  the limbs 3" wide. He said that a 50# willow bow would have had to have limbs over 4" wide to be efficient. In short, there is a reason why you don't hear much about people making willow bows:  it pretty much sucks as bow wood. Use the oak.
Smoky Mountains, NC

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Progress might have been all right once but it's gone on for far too long.

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 11:46:00 am »
Here are some excellent, concise willow bowmaking instructions written by  Bowmonk (Russell) that I liberated from another forum-very good tutorial and excellent advice.  ;D


Willow WILL "make" excellent bow wood... here is the process to follow to bring about it's greatness...

First... select a willow tree that is fairly uniform... difficult task i know, but you can find them from time to time. 6" to 8" diameter is sufficient.

Second... cut it down and split it into rails immediatly... willow is a wood that retains much moisture and will lose it quickly, so if you split it quickly it will have less chance of checking and ruining your fine stave. Aslo... the rapid drying will make for some nice backset.

Third... after they have cured for about 2 months, stack all of your staves on the ground over a pile of cedar chips and news paper... this will aid in keeping the willow from drawing back in the moisture that you waited so long for it to lose.

Fourth... find some matches and light the news paper... this is called heat treating... or as some would call "toasting".

Fifth... crack the top on your favorite beer or soda, and kick back and watch that bitch burn to the ground!

Sixth... after the ashes have cooled... till it into the ground... this is called "tillering"

Seventh... ring you best buddy in archery and ask him to send you some of those Osage orange fruits... and plant them in the freshly tillered soil. The willow ashes will act as a wonderful fertalizer and soil sweetener... Thus it will aid or "make" an excellent bow wood in about 20 years 

Now you can relax... and keep smiling, knowing that someone cares about you, and doesn't want to see you waste your time.

~Russell
Smoky Mountains, NC

NeolithicHillbilly@gmail.com

Progress might have been all right once but it's gone on for far too long.

Offline tom sawyer

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 01:35:39 pm »
Yep tahts what I would do pappy.  Hey is Russell still around and making bows?  He does great work.  He and a guy from FL who made the short stiff-handled bows, I cant' remember his handle but I admired both their stuff.
Lennie
Hannibal, MO

duffontap

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 02:18:18 pm »
The first time I met the master bowyer John Strunk, he put a relatively short, highly crowned willow bow less than 2 inches wide in my hands.  Typical of his work, it was a beautiful weapon with hardly any set.  He smiled slyly and said, "and everybody says you can't make a bow out of willow."  Very good, patient bowyers can do things that us 'bow design and performance' readers didn't think possible. 

I would use the oak, but it would be pretty cool if you could build one of your long D bows out of willow and post a pic for us.  See if you can get 50#.  It would be a bow of the month challenger for sure!  J. D. Duff

stickbow

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 05:50:31 pm »
for a willow bow (it would be fun to make one) I wouldn't make it any shorter than 76", and I wouldn't make it any narrower than 1.5". I would make it slightly elliptical tillered for 50# at 28". You might be able to pull this off, but it wouldn't be easy.

Don't use a tree with any less than 4" diameter.

Offline venisonburger

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 05:52:47 pm »
Holy crap hillbilly, I darn near busted a gut when I hit the part about watching that "bitch" burn, that kills me, funny stuff.
VB

stickbow

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 07:55:23 pm »
The first time I met the master bowyer John Strunk, he put a relatively short, highly crowned willow bow less than 2 inches wide in my hands.  Typical of his work, it was a beautiful weapon with hardly any set.  He smiled slyly and said, "and everybody says you can't make a bow out of willow."  Very good, patient bowyers can do things that us 'bow design and performance' readers didn't think possible. 

I would use the oak, but it would be pretty cool if you could build one of your long D bows out of willow and post a pic for us.  See if you can get 50#.  It would be a bow of the month challenger for sure!  J. D. Duff


Does John Strunk have the internet? I would like to ask some questions about that bow. But I would bet five bucks that its' actionwood, or maybe an unusually dense piece.

Rich Saffold

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2006, 01:25:42 am »
What J. D. Duff Said about John Strunk's willow bow... ;D  It's nothing new..Lots of"marginal" woods work well if you have an open mind, and do a little research as opposed to regurgitating what everyone else said.. ::)

And I bet John's bow shoots better than the "typical" wood bow.... ;)

Rich, Made one decent willow bow, and will make another just because I've just been told doesn't work :o




Offline Hillbilly

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2006, 01:00:09 pm »
Rich, we went into this elsewhere. I apologize for my obvious mental deficiency evidenced by "regurgitating what every one else said." However, I would say that Tim has done more of the "research" that you speak of than anyone alive, so I would tend to listen to what he has to say. Aside from my feeble closed-minded digestion and re-vomitation of everybody else's ideas, I have also worked with trees and wood most of my life, and couldn't help but notice a few properties of different species of wood and form a few of my own opinions along the way. You make some excellent bows, and I respect your opinion even if you seem to take offense to mine. But; to recap what you don't seem to be reading: I never said that you couldn't make a bow from willow!!!!! I have no doubt that you can and will make one. I also have no doubt that John Strunk could make a bow out of willow, or balsawood for that matter, if he took a notion to. Hell, I saw the Mythbusters on TV make a crossbow that actually shot from newspaper and elastic from a pair of drawers. Would I want to rely on a newspaper-and underwear- bow for deer hunting? No. Would it be fun to make one as a challenge? Sure! From my "regurgitation" of Tim's info, you will notice that he did actually make a willow bow that shot pretty good. I am also positive that Russel could make a willow shooter. I'm pretty sure that if I set my mind to it, I could probably make a willow bow that would shoot, as could most bowyers with some experience under their belts. The point I am making, though, is that I wouldn't set  people who are new to this up for a bunch of frustration by acting like willow is just as good of wood as hickory, osage, ash, elm, etc., to make your first, second or third bow from, because it simply ain't.  If you can't possibly find any other wood, go for it! If you want to try to make a good willow bow as a personal challenge, more power to ya! I still wouldn't say to a beginner that willow is a good wood for bowmaking. We have lots of willow around here, and from doing plenty of tree work over the years, I can tell you that it is obviously a weak, brittle wood, weaker than pine, boxelder, silver maple, or almost anything else we have here. Different species of willow might have slightly different properties, and different climates might affect its performance, but most of us don't live in the desert. I might try to make a willer bow myself one of these days too,  just for the helluvit; but I'll be wincing every time I pull it back, and I ain't taking it deer huntin'.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 01:28:29 pm by Hillbilly »
Smoky Mountains, NC

NeolithicHillbilly@gmail.com

Progress might have been all right once but it's gone on for far too long.

stickbow

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2006, 03:37:53 pm »
Actually, boxelder suckers make fair bow wood.

Rich Saffold

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2006, 04:07:07 pm »
Hillbilly,Actually I don't take offense with yours or anyones bows, and I didn't mean you personally when I commented above..This type of commenting on woods has been going on long before the leatherwall evolved..It's meant in general terms...Heck I remember Gary Davis tell me ipe won't make a bow as I'm shooting a 58" 60#er at mojam right in front of him..six years ago..He isn't the only one, by a longshot..

I also know what Tim Baker wrote, and saw the pic of that willow bow..and that one willow bow isn't basis for a commentary of a wood, especially since there have been others which shine..I know Tim well and  more than once has told me I couldn't get a bow out of a stave which now is a very quick chrononlogically speaking...

The Mojave Indians designed their bows as much to deal with the low humidity and heat of the region than the relative "weakness" of the wood..An osage bow wouldn't last very long if at all in those conditions...


The reality is its easy to joke about a woods quality, or lack therof, but when there are shooters out there of that same species..well it proves its just a joke..

I'll go cut another branch from the willow tree in our front yard, make a bow from it, and post some full draw pics here...I think it will be quite fun ;D

I know you have experience with trees, but I live where there is the greatest diversity of native and non-native species of anywhere in the US, and with most of these bowwoods  our desert air produces a density in some of these woods which you won't find elsewhere..like willow.. ;)

Rich-


duffontap

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2006, 06:47:20 pm »
Whose up for a all-willow bow contest?  I'll have a willow selfbow posted in a couple months.  By the way--I don't know anyone (myself especially) who doesn't feel an unpayable debt to Tim Baker for his research. 

                J. D. Duff

ratty

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2006, 09:28:17 pm »
i think im going to have a go at a willow bow ;) but first im going to use my oak. ;) so it may take me a few months to get to it, because i also will have to dry the willow.

ill photograph the whole making when i do it ;) even if it breaks ;D

arquerogringo

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Re: bow woods willow?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2006, 02:12:28 pm »
I've held some of those old Mojave bows in my hands. They are nice, really nice.
 They are deflexed at the tips, long, and oval in cross section, maybe an inch and a half or a little less wide. They will kill anything.
And I don't understand the whole "no bow wood there" thing. there are a number of hardwoods that grow in the Colorado river basin, mesquite being really common among others. My guess is that Mojaves used willow because they liked long bows and willow grows big and strait. It is easier to work, too, they saved the mesquite for the war clubs.
They traded with other tribes, and if they found thier bows inadiquite they surly would have been trading for other staves.
To us "full spectrum" bowyery enthusiasts we think that is one wood is not as good as another then it is inferior. But if you have something that works in your situation, then you don't need to change. You can if you want, and it happens, not it is not needed.
Damon