Meaning of 'Piked'

[SimonUK]

I remember a discussion on the old forum about the meaning of the word 'piked' in Toxophilus by Roger Ascham. Some people thought it meant to shorten the bow.

The often quoted sentence is: 'which shall cut him shorter, and pike him'.

I found another sentence which to me makes it clear to me that 'to pike' is 'to narrow':

Frets be first little pinches, the which when you perceive, pike the places about the pinches, to make them somewhat weaker, and as well coming as where it pinched, and so the pinches shall die, and never increase further into great frets.

[duffontap]

Simon,
Good eye.  I'm more convinced than ever.  I was actually thinking today about this discussion we had on the other forum.  Thanks for bringing it back around.  I hope more people will weigh in.  I've never heard Jaro's thoughts on this one either. 

         J. D. Duff

[Yeomanbowman]

What Ascham mean by pyking and shortening seems to be quite straightforward.  But then he talks of 'whipping' as well.  This is not a reference to either of the above as it's mentioned as a separate action and right after the other two in the text.  Is this a reference to recurving the tips?  As Jaro states in another thread, it seemed a common practice to have a bow 'dressed' after it was shot-in.  If the bow tips were recurved when purchased any later shortening would reduce the effect.  It could also be done to a straight limbed bow to counter string-follow.
There is plenty of evidence of this practice.
J

[bow-toxo]

Whipping in this case means thinning the tips To increase the fiexiabiility and to reduce stress on the handgrip area. Mary Rose bows were thinned in the last foot or so. This thinning was thought to increase cast

[stevesjem]

Here is my interpretation of Piking, Dressing and Whipping.

Piking: To shorten a bow to the desired length. When i make a self yew bow i always make it over long and tiller it with the extra length, it is then shot in which afterwards draw weight is reduced naturally as the wood settles, i then reduce the length (Pike) to bring the bow weight back up to what i wanted in the 1st place.

Dressing: Like us when we get dressed we are adding clothing or garments, i see this as adding the horn nocks, also dressing could mean tidying up the bow, sanding and polishing to make it look nice.

Whipping: I always add the raw horn to the bow and carve the nocks while on the bow, what happens is the when i feather the bow tips to get an even and smooth transition between the bow and the horn i have to remove wood from about 6" up the limb to the horn, thus slimming the ends, i always keep the bow tips quite stiff initially and after this process is done the tips bend ever so slightly more than in the 1st place without losing draw weight.

Steve

[alanesq]

The quote from from Ascham is

Take your bow in to the feeld, mote in hym, finke hym
wyth deade heauye fhaftes, looke where he commethe
mooft,prouyde for that place betymes,lefte it pincrieand
fo freate; when you hauethus fhot in him,andperceyued
good fhootynge woode in hym, you muft haue hym
agayne to a good cunnynge, and truftie woorkeman,
whyche fhall cut hym morter, and pike hym and dreffe
hym fytte

There seems to be three separate operations mentioned here:
   Cut it shorter
   pike
   and dress

[SimonUK]

Just to let you know I still exist... just very busy. Hi everyone.

[medicinewheel]

gentlemen!  -  the english/german on line dictionaries all say a verb 'to pike' doesn't exist, but along the many meanings of pike as a noun you'll find the word 'Spitze', which is something that tapers or narrows towards it's tip, like the churchtower (Turmspitze), the spear (Speerspitze), or the arrowhead (Pfeilspitze).

none of the translations resembles 'kürzen', which is shortening!

frank

[Papa Matt]

Alanesq~

  What's the translation of that passage in red? It looks cool.


~~Matt

[Yeomanbowman]

Whipping in this case means thinning the tips To increase the fiexiabiility and to reduce stress on the handgrip area. Mary Rose bows were thinned in the last foot or so. This thinning was thought to increase cast

The act of cutting shorter is not expressed as a verb but rather a sentence (saying just about that) and mentioned before piking.  Pikes, as in the staff weapon, were tapered at the tips and for my money piking was the process of thinning the tips not whipping. I think whipping could well mean something else.  It is important to keep an open mind and no state things that are clearly not definitive as such.  We may well never fully know what whipping described but can only state our case based on experience and evidence.

[alanesq]

  What's the translation of that passage in red? It looks cool.

I believe this is the way the book was originally written
the printed versions I have has been translated into more modern English but I have found that its best to refer to the original as some times the translated version can be misleading

btw - you can download it from http://www.archive.org/download/RogerAschamToxophilus1545/RogerAschamToxophilus1545.pdf

[bow-toxo]

Whipping in this case means thinning the tips To increase the fiexiabiility and to reduce stress on the handgrip area. Mary Rose bows were thinned in the last foot or so. This thinning was thought to increase cast

The act of cutting shorter is not expressed as a verb but rather a sentence (saying just about that) and mentioned before piking.  Pikes, as in the staff weapon, were tapered at the tips and for my money piking was the process of thinning the tips not whipping. I think whipping could well mean something else.  It is important to keep an open mind and no state things that are clearly not definitive as such.  We may well never fully know what whipping described but can only state our case based on experience and evidence.

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I totally agree that piking would mean tapering at the tips. Ascham recommends "whipping at the endes but with discretion, lest he whippe in sunder, or els freete.". To me, that means thinning the tips, that being thinner are less prone to compression damage, close to the point of brerakage. It seems clear to me. As always, I am willing to be convinced by a more likely explanation.

[ratty]

i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.

[bow-toxo]

i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.

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None of the Mary Rose bows has recurved ends, gentle or otherwise. Why would a recurve be in danger of "whipping in sunder"? Also , why would Ascham suggest that recurving was normal practice when none of the many MR bows, most probably made in his lifetime, show any sign of recurve ? Maybe you are thinking of that 'Weapons that made Britain" expert ?

[ratty]

i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.

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None of the Mary Rose bows has recurved ends, gentle or otherwise. Why would a recurve be in danger of "whipping in sunder"? Also , why would Ascham suggest that recurving was normal practice when none of the many MR bows, most probably made in his lifetime, show any sign of recurve ? Maybe you are thinking of that 'Weapons that made Britain" expert ?

Take your bow into the field, shoot in him, sink him with dead heavy shafts, look where he cometh most, provide for that place betimes, lest it pinch, and so fret : when you have thus shot in him, and perceived good shooting wood in him, you must have him again to a good, cunning, and trusty workman, which shall cut him shorter, and pike him and dress him fitter, make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of: he must also lay him straight, if he be cast, or otherwise need require; and if he be flat made, gather him round, and so shall he both shoot the faster for far shooting, and also the surer for near pricking.

make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of

i read this with the impression he was talking about recurving the tips (but with discretion)

and if they bent them too much while putting in a slight recrve, they would sunder,  split/break/.

im sure in these quotes here, that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.


words can have different meaning depending on the periods they are written for eg.

Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen to move up and down, sway, Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century

or



Main Entry: 1whip 
Pronunciation: \ˈhwip, ˈwip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whipped; whip·ping
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen (to move up and down, sway,) Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1: to take, pull, snatch, jerk, or otherwise move very quickly and forcefully