Meaning of 'Piked'

[bow-toxo]

i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.

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You did right. Looking up a word in the dictionary is really the best way to find out what it means. My favourite, especially for words in previous centuries, is the ‘Oxford English Dictionary’ which has several pager of examples for many words. I get two relevant  meanings for whip. One is “to bind round or ‘serve’ with cord etc.’ as in the whipping on a bow string. The other is ”a flexible switch with or without a lash.”  Or “a slender flexible branch of a plant”. Also ‘whippy’ meaning “flexible, springy”. So you can see the connection to a whiplash injury.
    I found no reference to any bent shape in four pages of definitions,or in yours either.

I really have to disagree with your idea, "that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.” If you are not aware that English archery at this time was regulated to produce military archers, and that the only recreational bows were thpse used by such women or clergy exempt from compulsory practice, I suggest that you ac6tually read Toxophilus which comments on military barbed arrowheads and arrow shaft materials for war arrows, and check the statutes of Henry VIII concerning archery that mandated practice, leaving no time for  “recreational” archery or bows for "recreational bows" for men.

[ratty]

hello bow-toxo

you wrote

I found no reference to any bent shape in four pages of definitions,or in yours either.

Main Entry: 1whip 
Pronunciation: \ˈhwip, ˈwip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whipped; whip·ping
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen (to move up and down, sway,) Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century

the word sway ? = To cause to incline or bend to one side. or   To divert; deflect     

source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sway



you wrote

I really have to disagree with your idea, "that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.” If you are not aware that English archery at this time was regulated to produce military archers, and that the only recreational bows were thpse used by such women or clergy exempt from compulsory practice, I suggest that you ac6tually read Toxophilus which comments on military barbed arrowheads and arrow shaft materials for war arrows, and check the statutes of Henry VIII concerning archery that mandated practice, leaving no time for  “recreational” archery or bows for "recreational bows" for men.

this quote should explain my reasoning

Phi. I grant, Toxophile, that use of shooting maketh a man draw strong, to shoot at most advantage, to keep his gear, which is no small thing in war; but yet methink that the customable shooting at home, specially at butts and pricks, make nothing at all for strong shooting, which doth most good in war. Therefore, I suppose, if men should use to go into the fields, and learn to shoot mighty strong shots, and never care for any mark at all, they should do much better.

Tox. The truth is, that fashion much used would do much good, but this is to be feared, lest that way could not provoke men to use much shooting, because there should be little pleasure in it. And that in shooting is best, that provoketh a man to use shooting most; for much use maketh men shoot both strong and well, which two-things in shooting every man doth desire. And the chief maintainer of use in any thing is comparison and honest contention. For when a man striveth to be better than another, he will gladly use that thing, though it be never so painful, wherein he would excel; which thing Aristotle very prettily doth note, saying, " Where is comparison, there is victory; where is victory, there is pleasure; and where is pleasure, no man careth what labour or pain he taketh, because of the praise and pleasure that he shall have in doing better than other men."

quote from the first book of shooting

Phi. The excellent commodities of shooting in peace time, Toxophile, you have very well and sufficiently declared. Whereby you have so persuaded me, that, God willing, hereafter I will both love it the better, and also use it the ofter. For as much as I can gather of all this communication of ours, the tongue, the nose, the hands, and the feet, be no fitter members or instruments for the body of a man, than is shooting for the whole body of the realm. God hath made the parts of men which be best and most necessary, to serve, not for one purpose only, but for many; as the tongue for speaking and tasting; the nose for smelling, and also for avoiding all excrements which fall out of the head; the hands for receiving of good things, and for putting of [off] all harmful things from the body. So shooting is an exercise of health, a pastime of honest pleasure, and such one also that stoppeth or avoideth all noisome games, gathered and increased by ill rule, as naughty humours be, which hurt and corrupt sore that part of the realm wherein they do remain.

But now if you can show but half so much profit in war of shooting, as you have proved pleasure in peace, then will I surely judge that there be few things that have so manifold commodities and uses joined unto them as it bath.

i believe a person would not buy and have a cunning bowyer dress pike ect there bow if it was not for recreational use.

all bows would have been supplied for warfare ,i believe you would not be expected to bring your own bow to battle. for eg on the maryrose nearly all the bows were kept in boxes most probably more bows than archers,and would be standardised.

[ratty]

i think piked means to bring the bow ends to a point.

[SimonUK]

Quote
make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of

i read this with the impression he was talking about recurving the tips (but with discretion)

and if they bent them too much while putting in a slight recrve, they would sunder,  split/break/.

Or it could mean that recurving the tips puts more stress on the rest of the bow, increasing the chance of frets there.

i think piked means to bring the bow ends to a point.

But if you read the quote in the first post of this thread, piking is done either side of a fret to stop it getting worse.

[bow-toxo]

hello bow-toxo

you wrote

I found no reference to any bent shape in four pages of definitions,or in yours either.

Main Entry: 1whip 
Pronunciation: \ˈhwip, ˈwip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whipped; whip·ping
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen (to move up and down, sway,) Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century

the word sway ? = To cause to incline or bend to one side. or   To divert; deflect     

source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sway



you wrote

I really have to disagree with your idea, "that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.” If you are not aware that English archery at this time was regulated to produce military archers, and that the only recreational bows were thpse used by such women or clergy exempt from compulsory practice, I suggest that you ac6tually read Toxophilus which comments on military barbed arrowheads and arrow shaft materials for war arrows, and check the statutes of Henry VIII concerning archery that mandated practice, leaving no time for  “recreational” archery or bows for "recreational bows" for men.

this quote should explain my reasoning

Phi. I grant, Toxophile, that use of shooting maketh a man draw strong, to shoot at most advantage, to keep his gear, which is no small thing in war; but yet methink that the customable shooting at home, specially at butts and pricks, make nothing at all for strong shooting, which doth most good in war. Therefore, I suppose, if men should use to go into the fields, and learn to shoot mighty strong shots, and never care for any mark at all, they should do much better.

Tox. The truth is, that fashion much used would do much good, but this is to be feared, lest that way could not provoke men to use much shooting, because there should be little pleasure in it. And that in shooting is best, that provoketh a man to use shooting most; for much use maketh men shoot both strong and well, which two-things in shooting every man doth desire. And the chief maintainer of use in any thing is comparison and honest contention. For when a man striveth to be better than another, he will gladly use that thing, though it be never so painful, wherein he would excel; which thing Aristotle very prettily doth note, saying, " Where is comparison, there is victory; where is victory, there is pleasure; and where is pleasure, no man careth what labour or pain he taketh, because of the praise and pleasure that he shall have in doing better than other men."

quote from the first book of shooting

Phi. The excellent commodities of shooting in peace time, Toxophile, you have very well and sufficiently declared. Whereby you have so persuaded me, that, God willing, hereafter I will both love it the better, and also use it the ofter. For as much as I can gather of all this communication of ours, the tongue, the nose, the hands, and the feet, be no fitter members or instruments for the body of a man, than is shooting for the whole body of the realm. God hath made the parts of men which be best and most necessary, to serve, not for one purpose only, but for many; as the tongue for speaking and tasting; the nose for smelling, and also for avoiding all excrements which fall out of the head; the hands for receiving of good things, and for putting of [off] all harmful things from the body. So shooting is an exercise of health, a pastime of honest pleasure, and such one also that stoppeth or avoideth all noisome games, gathered and increased by ill rule, as naughty humours be, which hurt and corrupt sore that part of the realm wherein they do remain.

But now if you can show but half so much profit in war of shooting, as you have proved pleasure in peace, then will I surely judge that there be few things that have so manifold commodities and uses joined unto them as it bath.

i believe a person would not buy and have a cunning bowyer dress pike ect there bow if it was not for recreational use.

all bows would have been supplied for warfare ,i believe you would not be expected to bring your own bow to battle. for eg on the maryrose nearly all the bows were kept in boxes most probably more bows than archers,and would be standardised.

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Bending to one side does not imply a permanent bend. Are you reoading my posts at all ? Your beliefs are not relevant to the facts. Englishmen [ and boys] were required to buy the bows and arrows to learn to shoot and for the cumpulsory practice required of able bodied Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 6o. These were not usually yew bows as yew was needed for the wars and ownership was restricted. Bowyers were required to make most bows of 'meane woods'. The crown issued yew warbows and arrows to those men recruited for combat operations. I mcommend you for reading Toxophilus. I suggest that you also refer to the many statutes of Henry VII concerning archery to get a more complete picture. Although many enjoyed the cumpulsory practice, recreational archery per se belongs to later periods. I hope you can get over your obsession with the idea of pampered dandies at the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.

[outcaste]

Englishmen [ and boys] were required to buy the bows and arrows to learn to shoot and for the cumpulsory practice required of able bodied Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 6o. These were not usually yew bows as yew was needed for the wars and ownership was restricted. Bowyers were required to make most bows of 'meane woods'. The crown issued yew warbows and arrows to those men recruited for combat operations. I mcommend you for reading Toxophilus. I suggest that you also refer to the many statutes of Henry VII concerning archery to get a more complete picture. Although many enjoyed the cumpulsory practice, recreational archery per se belongs to later periods. I hope you can get over your obsession with the idea of pampered dandies at the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.

Hi,

From a more practical standpoint It seems that bows from meane woods such as Ash find it it difficult achieving weights much over 120/30lbs. If the bows from the MR average between 140/60lbs. It seems quite a jump from practice to warfare. What are your thoughts on this? Does it mean that Yew bows for war were lighter than are thought to have been used on the MR?

Alistair

[bow-toxo]

the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.

Hi,

From a more practical standpoint It seems that bows from meane woods such as Ash find it it difficult achieving weights much over 120/30lbs. If the bows from the MR average between 140/60lbs. It seems quite a jump from practice to warfare. What are your thoughts on this? Does it mean that Yew bows for war were lighter than are thought to have been used on the MR?
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 I have wondered about that also.  The practice was designed to cover all distances and conditions and to be able to hit a mark whether shooting level or at a 45 % angle as Mancini observed. In war, in a tight formation as they usually were, only the first rank would be able to shoot level, while the other ranks would have to shoot over the heads of those in front of them. As an archer shooting upward can draw about a 40 % stronger bow than when shooting level, he could use a stronger bow than he was used to. The sheaves of arrows had a smaller number of shorter arrows with the longer ones. The archer would be able to fully draw them if the long draw at a level mark was beyond his strength. I'm just guessing, but it seems to make sense.

Alistair

[ratty]

Englishmen [ and boys] were required to buy the bows and arrows to learn to shoot and for the cumpulsory practice required of able bodied Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 6o. These were not usually yew bows as yew was needed for the wars and ownership was restricted. Bowyers were required to make most bows of 'meane woods'. The crown issued yew warbows and arrows to those men recruited for combat operations. I mcommend you for reading Toxophilus. I suggest that you also refer to the many statutes of Henry VII concerning archery to get a more complete picture. Although many enjoyed the cumpulsory practice, recreational archery per se belongs to later periods. I hope you can get over your obsession with the idea of pampered dandies at the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.

Hi,

From a more practical standpoint It seems that bows from meane woods such as Ash find it it difficult achieving weights much over 120/30lbs. If the bows from the MR average between 140/60lbs. It seems quite a jump from practice to warfare. What are your thoughts on this? Does it mean that Yew bows for war were lighter than are thought to have been used on the MR?

Alistair

my guess is, self whitewood bows such as ash would have been made much flatter than yew to achieve high draw weights.

but elm seems to work well to high draw weights

[Yeomanbowman]

As an archer shooting upward can draw about a 40 % stronger bow than when shooting level, he could use a stronger bow than he was used to.

Hello BT,
That's an interesting theory about why there were the different lengths of shaft found in a sheaf and one which I'd not come across before. 
I'm curious how you arrived at the figure about an archer being 40% stronger if he/she draws at 45 degrees, or so, over flat shooting?  Is it based on your empirical experience as I have found the opposite to be the case.  I think this is due to the raising of the bow arm shortening the draw length or if the angle is made via a torso/leg bend the general unnaturalness of the position causing more difficulty.  Having seen all of the UK's heavy shooters in the flesh I have noticed that many draw flat and then incline to 45 to shoot for distance.  This is partly to aim but is also done whilst flight shooting.  If and archer could only draw 100lbs flat I find it difficult to believe that all of a sudden 140lbs would be achievable if the bow was draw at an inclined angle.  I regularly shoot a bows over 150lbs and can do this flat but there is no way I could shoot a bow well over 200lbs incline or not.  What is you source for the 40% extra theory, please?
Cheers,
Jeremy

[bow-toxo]

As an archer shooting upward can draw about a 40 % stronger bow than when shooting level, he could use a stronger bow than he was used to.

Hello BT,
 What is you source for the 40% extra theory, please?
Cheers,
Jeremy

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My theory source is personal experience noted with a bow a little beyond my usual strength and the actions tested for poundage on gym equipment, after another shooter offered the same observation.  A posting by another member claimed that it would be impossible for him to shoot level with his warbow without serious physical damage. Perhaps there is a majority one way or another and other members could offer their own experience.

[ratty]

i shoot my 133# bow flat at targets

although it is not as comfortable as shooting into the air . it is no harder really. except aiming which is why i shoot instinctivley.

i wouldn't say i could shoot a much heavier bow into the air, and not be able to shoot the same bow flat.

[ratty]

i think we may be drifting a little off topic

[bow-toxo]

i think we may be drifting a little off topic

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Right. Sorry.

[triton]

fashionable shoes of the period were referred to as "piked", having long tapered toes.
pike are long and tapered.
a pike was used in medieval warfare.  looooong pole with an iron s'pike atop.

good old anglo saxon was rather more descriptive than norman and looked to nature for similarities. 
the bow is refered to in old texts as "him" and he stands like a man.  When he "bows" his "back" is outward and his "belly" inward. 
why then would pike mean to shorten when they already had a perfectly good word for reducing the length of something: Shorten