toasting

[crooketarrow]

  When I toast my white wood bow bellys I always temper about the same. I know some people really char there bows some don't hardly temper theres at all. When I do temper my bows I always temper mine  mid way and do this before I tiller the bow. This way when it's tiller and remove the wood  you can't see or tell it's tempered and it dyes good. I always dye white wood bows.
   Is there differance in woods to the amont of tempering that should be done.

[artcher1]

Crooketarrow, I don't think the species matters as much as the wood's growth ring thickness. Maybe Marc will weigh in on this this...........Art

[crooketarrow]

  Thanks but why you think ring thichest would matter.

[artcher1]

  Thanks but why you think ring thichest would matter.

Because I know from experience that a limb with thicker rings will hold it's reshaped profile better than thin rings. Very thin belly rings, as you often find in hickory for instance, will easily crack when heated and reflexed.  All this tell me that thicker rings works best when reflexing/recurving limbs with heat.........Art

[crooketarrow]

     I unstand that but I'm talking about toasting the back of the bow. I no longer use heat on limbs on the handle to bring the string in line. If I can't bring it in by tillering. I only use natural reflex or put my own in when I cut and split the stave. I quit useing heat on lims a time back. Damages wood cells to bad in most wood this helps to cause string follow. Osage it's not to bad and you can use heat moderly but I don't even use it then. Lots of ways to get around useing heat if you wish to. Ofcorse to don't get those purty unstrung bows.

[artcher1]

     I unstand that but I'm talking about toasting the back of the bow. I no longer use heat on limbs on the handle to bring the string in line. If I can't bring it in by tillering. I only use natural reflex or put my own in when I cut and split the stave. I quit useing heat on lims a time back. Damages wood cells to bad in most wood this helps to cause string follow. Osage it's not to bad and you can use heat moderly but I don't even use it then. Lots of ways to get around useing heat if you wish to. Ofcorse to don't get those purty unstrung bows.

 If thats been working for you all these years then don't change a thing Crooketarrow. Prime bow wood is hard to come by for most of us so we can't afford to scrape any suitable wood. Manipulating the wood using heat is a much better option for the vast majority to get the most from less.

Just from your comments, I see you don't really have a good understanding of the benefits of using heat and it's beneficial tempering properties. Properly used, heat changes, not damaging cell structures as you believe. Sure, you can build some great bows without using any heat what so ever, but that can limit ones bow building experience..........Art

[Pappy]

What Art said.  Also I never heat the back of the bow,just the belly.
   Pappy

[michbowguy]

yes, what art said.
and when i toast or heat treat or just toasting to add color nothing more i always wipe on fat or grease, this helps keep the bow from splitting.
i do burnish the hell out of the back of all my bows and reallu rubbing in on high crowned backs from sappling bows.
good luck.
jamie

[Pat B]

I very rarely heat a stave from the back. On occasion I will use a little heat on the back along with the belly to insure good heat penetration but I don't want any color change at all. I think that any color change to the back will decrease the tension strength of the bow.
 Also, heat treating(tempering) and heat straightening are generally two different methods, at least for me they are. On occasion I will temper a stave as I'm straightening but not very often and only when the problems are minor. Usually though, once everything lines up and the limbs are bending evenly and together I will temper the belly, while on a form, and get it to an appropriate color and to improve the compression strengths of the bow. As of yet I haven't done a deep tempering like Marc does. I'm working up to that a little at a time. In my experiences so far I find that even the medium toasting has improved the durability of my bows as far as decreasing set and has added a bit of zip to my bows. I've used my method on hickory, locust and osage with good results and am working on the elm recurve now. After another 50 to 75 shots I will be able to tell how well it has worked for this bow.

[eflanders]

I have to respectfully disagree and reinforce some of the comments posted on this subject:

1). Toasting or Charring the wood tempers the wood to make it slightly harder / stiffer.  It is not just a color change.  However, for maximum hardness benefit, the heat must penetrate into the core of the wood and not just on the surface even though just a "surface treatment will temper the surface of the wood.  In other words, the tempering/hardness change penetrates only as far as the key temperature does.

2). Tempering or hardening of the wood helps compression weak woods.  It does not aid in tension, in fact it can hurt tension weak woods.  This is why it is not usually recommended for backs, just bellys however, certain woods (bamboo in particular) can handle and is quite condusive to tempering and this is why some successfully temper a bamboo backed bow.

3). Heat treating a piece of wood for hardness and heat treating for shaping are two different things.  They should not be confused with one another.  There are other posts on the differences here and elsewhere.

I have to admit though that I am quite a rookie bowyer yet, but I have been heat-treating wood for many years for other reasons such as fly rod-building, ship making, etc.

[crooketarrow]

  Yes archer I do understand the bebefits of heat on a bows. I've used heat on dozzens of bows. I NOW CHOSE NOT TO USE HEAT ON ANY WORKING PART OF THE LIMBS. BEND THERE DONE THAT.And if heat is the only way of bow building you under stand thats find. One day you may see where I'm coing from.BUT HEAT IT HAS IT'S PLACE. ARCHER I'm sorry if I come acroos as a smart %$#@ I don't mean to I just have a way of telling it like I see it.  Sorry I don't mean to afend anyone. I was just thinking of a munch of indains setting around a camp fire passing the propane torch around.
      I've never seen a bow where heats been used on the woorking parts of limbs.That the bow was  truely durable thats has lasted for a couple years of 1000's of arrows. I 'm sure you all have a couple of bows hanging around that you've retired for just this reason. AL I USE TO SHOOT THAT BOW BUT IT'S WORN OUT. A selfbow if built and tiller right don't where out if took care of. I 've got lots of bow out there thats 12,15 years old. Right now I'm shootiung a 60" osage thats like 13 or 14 years old a guy never picked up. Thats went through 1 kid and a friend and now I've used it sence 08. I along have put 1000's of arrows shot through it. l have the first osage I first made still get it out once in a while. Got a hickory I used for 5 seasons killed 13 bucks with it shot at least 100,000 arrows through it. I'm sure if I got the phone book out thats just a couple of many.
But I'll bet a bow that theres not a bowyer among you all including me had has'nt through a bow or 3 in the fire place becuse of not understanding heat. Plus archer you can't change any liveing cells ,wood include only damanage them. Some wood more than others. Matter of a fact I know of only one thats metal. I'm wrong 2 rock also I knap. Heat will change metal cells for the good (THERMOCYCLE) I build knives also. Only for the good on rock if you knap.
  My question was like metal different degrees of heat to different steels produce different afects. SAME WOTH ROCK. Sence all woods are different it seams each wood would need different degree of heat to be tempered correctly. I also only temper lightly I know some char there belly are swear it's the only way. Other only lighty and do the same.  I uselly only temper white woods and I've built lots that I hav'nt done anything.They've came out fine would tempering have helped them. I'm not sure of the benifits. There's other ways of peventing string follow. Seams to me by tempering it's only pulling out that last bit of moisture. Heat box dose the same thing. I don't see where barnishing the belly will help in any. What your thoughts on this.

[HatchA]

mmmmmmmmm... toast   *licks lips*

[artcher1]

Do you mean burnishing Crooketarrow? I only use that procedure to help highlight my work for any file/scrapper marks.  Other than that, I don't see much need for it. Your thoughts? Art

[crooketarrow]

   I've barnished the backs compresses wood cells. You got to remember to dye or stain first or you'll end up painting.I found this out with the very first bow I barnished. I agree with you EFLANDERS except WITH THE FIRST PART OF #2 tempering dose not compress wood cells it dose change them. which is where the tempering comes from as long as you con't over heat to where you start destorying  the cells. To compress wood calls to have to do it manully (BARNISH).
  #1's what I was asking whats the amount of heat required for different woods before it becomes to much. You don't temper bamboo fly rods tips the same as butts (AS LONG). I was taught not to. Different (amount) heat for different woods.

[Kegan]

I think any wood that's sufficiently strong in tension, at least compared to compression, will work with the same amount of tempering. I always like a nice deep toasting, and usually temper after tillering to full draw (no set tillering). In the end I suppose it's overbuilt at that point, but I don't mind

I will say that I've had wonderful results tempering extremely thin ringed hickory. It hasn't cracked, checked, or failed due to the heating. Might help that I get them very dry before tempering. Usually some thing stupid I do kills them before tempering does at least