Author Topic: Increasing dry-fire speed?  (Read 11413 times)

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Offline Del the cat

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2009, 05:54:13 am »
Out of interest I just found this table on the web having googled 'arrow acceleration'
It refers to two different bow types (one being a longbow)

Acceleration     Force on arrow 
average  max   average  max 
(G)        (G)    (lbf) (N)  (lbf) (N) 
200    378      6.4  (28)  12.0  (53) 
145   340       7.5  (34)  17.7  7.9 

I think an acceleration of 200G is significant :o.
The assertion that a 75g arrow is the same as a dry fire is self evidently nonsense.
There is plenty of energy imparted into the arrow which would otherwise go into the bow and string.
Del

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Offline Kegan

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2009, 10:00:19 am »
I didn't mean to start an argument :(

I was just looking for attributes that make good flightbows. Take those characterisitcs, add them (as best as I can) to hunting bows that are shooting about 7 gpp arrows, since they would need different attributes than a bow shooting a 10 gpp arrow.

Offline dragonman

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 10:46:02 am »
I was thinking the same  that self bows could probably take it!!
Jesse-S, if you do. it is a good idea to wear some goggles and maybe a helmet!!, it would be interesting but a shame to sacrifice you're bow. The damage may not be immediately apparent either
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline Jesse

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2009, 12:19:50 pm »
I was thinking the same  that self bows could probably take it!!
Jesse-S, if you do. it is a good idea to wear some goggles and maybe a helmet!!, it would be interesting but a shame to sacrifice you're bow. The damage may not be immediately apparent either
I was thinking of a bow I dont like anyway and yeah I would wear some protection just in case ;) If I did it I would most likely do it many times to see if I could get it to break ;D
"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere."
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Offline TBod

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 12:32:12 pm »
Kegan

Have you read the chapter by Dan Perry in tbb4. He talks o lot about dry fire speed. I like the concept of the dry fire speed.
You could for example get high dry fire by having a long stiff handle, making the tiller more whipped. Like that Hazelbow by Stellapasfänger in BOM October.

Offline dragonman

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2009, 12:49:56 pm »
I'm not trying to be arguementative, but I still dont appreciate this concept! (maybe I dont understand it) but bows need to shoot well with an arrow not without, and you can not test the theory without endangering the bow!! I guess I'll go back  and read up. I must be missing something
Jesse;    interesting experiment ,if you document and post the results, (I'd be interested anyway)
'expansion and compression'.. the secret of life is to balance these two opposing forces.......

Offline RyanY

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 02:43:57 pm »
Kegan - While I know absolutely nothing about flight shooting or dry fire speed I feel like the same principles of making a bow fast apply to all bows but the reason flight bows are fast is because they are pushed to the absolute limit of the materials for best possible speed. I was talking to Tim Baker about making a holmegaard style bow for optimal speed and the bottom line is make the outer limbs stiff and light with the inner limbs wide enough to take minimal set. Also heat treating is magic stuff.

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2009, 04:12:31 pm »
I have been thinking about this topic and I can see that what we have here is a misscommunication. Del, you are absolutely right about kE. The arrow has some on impact at the target. What Kegan is refering to is speed of the string. At a certain point the arrow becomes so light it has negligable effect on the speed of the string because the wood can only recover so fast no matter what. It is similar to throwing a bowling ball or throwing a BB. The bowling ball will slow your arm considerably. The BB will cause no percevable change. The BB still has mass and will have kE, but your empty hand cannot travel any faster than the one with the BB because you have reached the reaction speed of your muscle.
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Kegan

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 07:37:38 pm »
Thank you Justin :)!

TBod- yes, but I'm currently re-reading it. See, here I thought whip tillers were for heavy arrow bows ???. I need to do some more reading...

Dragonman- I'm not going to ACTUALLY dry fire one of my bows. I'd just like to increase their light-arrow performance.

Ryoon- Considering I'm not going to be using true flight arrows, you very well might be right. I'm working on several stiff, light tipped bows at the moment. Maybe jsut a little tweaking is all I'll need for them. Still, it's good to know just in case :).

Offline avcase

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2009, 08:44:41 pm »
The term "Dry-Fire" speed is a bit confusing but in flight shooting, high "Dry-Fire" speed simply means that the bow remains very efficient even with very light arrows.  I believe that Dan Perry coined the term.

I have shot bows that could not get out of their own way even with if there were no arrow mass on the string at all.  The drop off in efficiency with lighter arrows is very abrupt and the hand shock unbearable.  A 3-4 ggp arrow in this bow would be little different than a dry fire.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have shot an unconventional bow design (modern materials), where I accidentally dry fired it.  The string sounded like it cracked the sound barrier and sheared through a 1/8" steel protective plate before destroying itself.  This is insanely high dry-fire speed.  A 3-4 ggp arrow in this bow feels like the equivalent of lobbing a heavy brick compared to a true dry fire.  Although this would be a very FAST brick!  Even a 2ggp arrow slows down the string considerably with this kind of bow.

It is a lot of fun to see how changes in design an construction affects performance with very light arrows.  It certainly helps keep bow building from becoming dull for me.  There may only be a few fps difference between bows with heavy hunting arrows (10 ggp +/-), but the performance difference is magnified with light arrows. A great side benefit is that you will find that your target and hunting bows will improve based on what you learn from your flight shooting bows.

With regards to durability, a well made primitive flight bow can last a long time and I have seen many examples that continue to set records years after they were built.  Dan Perry is a good one to ask about that.

There are a couple of design approaches to take to get a high "dry fire" speed.  The first is to design a bow that focuses the bending area over as small a portion of the limb as possible.  The inner/handle and outer portions of the limb should be stiff as possible.  This forces all of the limb kinetic energy back through the string and into the arrow before it leaves the bow.

The other approach is to play around with "gear ratios".  What is meant by this is that the design allows a long draw but the heavier limb moves as little as possible so there is little energy lost to accelerating the limbs in the first place.  A compound wheel bow does this and there are some other unconventional designs that do this.

Regardless of the design approach, it is always good to keep the limb mass to a minimum and you use the lightest and stiffest string material you can find.

If you are interested in flight shooting and setting records, the US Flight Shooting nationals are held at the Bonneville Salt Flats toward the end of August.  There are several Primitive classes as well as modern classes.  It is a blast to be able to shoot far as you can without having to worry about losing your arrow.   :)

-Alan



Offline Aries

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2009, 10:22:54 pm »
See the whip ended state,ment making a fast bow confuses me. I believe that in one of the tbb the world record holding bow had very long outer limbs that worked like long levers with a very very small working portion of the limb right out side of the handle ???. I might be mistaken, i made the mistake of loaning my tbb's to a newby bowyer and havent seen them since lol :(
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                   you tend to see every problem as a nail."
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Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2009, 10:03:03 am »
Lots of things make a bow faster but less durable. Whip tiller is one of them. I believe underbuilding is a fairly common practice in flight bows. At least underbuilding what we would in a target or hunting bow.
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline adb

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2009, 12:23:33 pm »
Hey, Kegan... I understand your fascination with speed... it's fun. But, when it comes to hunting bows (which I think you're talking about), I much prefer momentum = penetration. Heavy arrows are more efficient than light arrows. With a heavy arrow, more of the energy in the bow's limbs are tranfered to the arrow, and less is lost with things like string vibration, limb vibration, etc. Light arrows fly like laser beams, but pack no punch when they arrive on target.

DCM4

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2009, 12:40:11 pm »
As I understand it "limb timing" for want of a better term is also relevant.  I know Marc know his stuff about speed and doesn't necessarily agree with my characterization of topic.  The idea is that if bow limbs return along the same path the took during the draw, and in addition with as little variation as possible in the string angle along the path, upper compared to lower, the bow is more effiicient.  Essentially if the nock doesn't travel much during the power stroke, it's better.

Improved efficiency (techniques) applies all bows, not just "flight bows."  Like the movie "an elk don't know how many feet a horse have..."

Offline Kegan

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Re: Increasing dry-fire speed?
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2009, 01:02:47 pm »
ADB- I'm not talking about using 300 gr arrows. For the weight I like to shoot, a 500-600 gr arrow is "light". I've built bows in the past however, that even though these same arows were spined properly, they made the bow kick like a mule and were no faster. I'm trying to build my way around that problem :)

Thanks all. I think I have enough to try a few test bows. Wish me luck :)