Wanted "bird point" article feedback...

[Wolf Watcher]

Billy:  Haven't read the article yet, but have found so many of them here in Northwest Wyoming that I believe they were used for all types of big game including Mountain Sheep by the "sheepeaters".  They are also found at the bottom of buffalo jumps because the archers could send a long shafted arrow deep into a wounded buffalo. Back when we could hunt with stone points, if a missed shot ended with a still usable shaft, I would just reflake the point and use the arrow again.  Some times that meant a very small point.  Worked just fine. The term "bird point" is very misleading!  Watcher

[huntertrapper]

i thought it was neat, i dont have flint to knap but use glass and it was imformative...

[D. Tiller]

I dont think the majority of bird points were reworked from larger points. If you look closley you can tell a point that has been reworked and sharpened in that the base is usually much wider than the rest of the head.

Have not read the article yet. Need to get into the post office and get my mail. Cant wait to read it! Especially the penetration test. Did you test also on how they did against bone. Something makes me think they would have the tendency to break and penetrate bone or glance off easily and continue penetration.

How ya doin Billy? You ever going to get back east again and join us arround the ol' Volcano knapping obsidian?

David T

[DanaM]

Just read the article, enjoyed it billy. Also made some bird points tonight, I'm just a beginer at Knapping and brought home a bunch of flakes from Pappy's that the more experienced guys considered junk, but guess what I managed to get some points out of them Actually their not bad and sharp as all heck, I can see how they would penetrate deep and kill efficiently. It may very well have been a case of maximizing their available materials. Anyway doubt if we will ever know fer sure.

[D. Tiller]

Hey Dana! Holy Wa Eh!

Well, out at Glass Buttes we were finding lots of bird points and that is one of the major sources for obsidian in the Northwest. So they were making them even though they had the materials to make larger points. So there must have been a reason they made them so small. Ishi once said he liked small points for hunting bear and large points for deer. Penetration ability? Maybe! But untill we start hunting with them we will never be certain for sure. Plus, the game warden would no like it! 

David T

[mullet]

   Billy, great informative article. I've been in the process of making up a set of foreshafts with small points and I'm going to hunt with them. I'm with David Tiller, I think a lot of them came from snapped points. I've been saving the tips of all the points I've broken and reworking them. And after thinning they are all about the same.
    Again that is one of the best articles I've read in Primitive Archer in a long time.

[Little John]

Eddie you should have a perfect opportunity to do further testing on live hogs, hope you do and let us know how you do. Nice meeting you at the classic.    Kenneth

[TRACY]

Billy, really enjoyed the article and the fact finding process that you used. I did a similar test on two blade and three blade steel broadheads in the late '80s. Nothing like making it as real as possible to get real answers and not guesses. The only criticism I have is constructive and not negative. In the midwest, roadkill deer are very easy to acquire on any given day and I would utilize that carcass over a nice clean killed deer that I worked hard for to harvest. This also brings up the question of the outcome of that deer after the experiment. Was it discarded or salvaged?

Great article.

Tracy

[cowboy]

I enjoyed the article also. I've been making bigger heavier points to give more weight up front and make my arrows fly straighter. Think I"ll try some "bird points" with heavy foreshafts on the hogs pretty soon.

[billy]

Glad ya'll liked the article.  To answer your questions Tracy, roadkilled deer are rare around my parts.  There are lots of subdivisions going in and the deer have become scattered.  I would have definitely used a fresh roadkilled deer if I could find one, but usually by the time I see them they are bloated, putrid, and I wouldn't even get near them.

As for the deer, the only regret about the test is that the deer had to be discarded.  When my friend Jason shot the deer it was on a Monday in early october.  Even though we had put ice bags in the deer's chest, that week we had temperatures in the mid 90's!!  By the time I was able to conduct the test on Wednesday afternoon the deer was already going bad.  I kept the deer in the coolest part of a large metal building, but I had to work all day tuesday so I was unable to replace the ice bags until the end of the day.  By wed afternoon, it was getting really stinky.  There were green patches in the meat and I wasn't about to risk food poisoning by eating the thing.  I felt really bad about that.....

   

[Otoe Bow]

Billy:  I loved the approach you used to test your theory.  It's a shame the deer went to waste, but if the info gained will help in clean kills in the future, I feel the loss is minimal.  Journalistically speaking, you did a good job in conveying the data as well.  Keep up the good work. 

Mike

[Theo 3]

Hi Billy,
 It was a great article with good photos and a real scientific approach. I always wondered why my friend from Gunnison,CO who was addicted to point hunting, always found small "bird points". These are from the Southern Ute tribe located in this area.

[mullet]

  Kenneth, Yes I will try them down on the ranch I get to hunt. They don't care what happens to the hogs there since they destroy so much. It is a shame to watch them kill 15 or 20 and just dump them in the gut pile.

[1/2primitive]

Billy, I took a cue from your article and have almost finished two cane arrows with bird pointed foreshafts in them. They are pretty neat so far.
    Sean

[recurve shooter]

billy, no dissrespect to hawk, but as long as you didnt just stick the dead deer, then go throw it out, it wernt dissrespectfull. uuuh, ya did eat the thing whey you were done didnt ya? if not, shame on ya.