Wanted "bird point" article feedback...

[huntertrapper]

i know he ate it curve

[recurve shooter]

i thought so.

[El Destructo]

As for the deer, the only regret about the test is that the deer had to be discarded.  When my friend Jason shot the deer it was on a Monday in early october.  Even though we had put ice bags in the deer's chest, that week we had temperatures in the mid 90's!!  By the time I was able to conduct the test on Wednesday afternoon the deer was already going bad.  I kept the deer in the coolest part of a large metal building, but I had to work all day tuesday so I was unable to replace the ice bags until the end of the day.  By wed afternoon, it was getting really stinky.  There were green patches in the meat and I wasn't about to risk food poisoning by eating the thing.  I felt really bad about that.....

   

Then you need to read the whole Thread....you are both wrong..........I have spent litterally whole Nights looking for Animals that I have shot...and that ran off and hid to die....just to not waste what I Shot..... I grew up with 5 Sisters and 4 Brothers....and every Animal that We Killed was consumed.... they were not wasted....I have not got my Magazine as of yet...so I can not comment on the Article and it's Data that was aquired from Shooting this Animal with Arrows....but I will side with Hawk on this..... That was a waste of an Animal...and in my Opinion........and I know that Opinions are Like Buttholes.......they mostly stink............ I could not and would not have anything to do with the Harvest and waste of a Deer or a Catfish for that matter....I would not Kill an Animal....if it was not going to be used to the Best of My Abilities....to Kill an Animal....and then let it go to waste....is an unforgivable act in my Book.......so I hope that you learned one heck of a lot from this so-called experiment and will not have to repeat the Waste again........JMO

[majsnuff]

I liked the use of an actual deer for penetration test. Any one who has ever shot a deer with an arrow now has a basis of comparison on the "Bird point' performance. Your article was interesting, entertaining, and I for one thought well researched.

As for the "bird points"  I have often wondered if these were actually "kids points". I know I have knapped some tiny points for my grandkids bows. They are really easy to knapp and the grandkids loved them. I can see Indian Dads turning out a mess of these for their kids to use. Just my speculation. 

I am looking forward to your future articles.

[John K]

Great article Billy !!

I enjoyed every bit of it !

John

[TRACY]

Thanks for the reply Billy. I appreciate and respect your honesty of the fate of the deer after testing. If everyone that reads the article gains some new experience and knowledge then that is a plus. I don't like to see the meat wasted but understand that your intent wasn't malicious and if the temperatures had been cooler you would have utilized this wonderful renewable resource. If your goal was to open minds to the underestimated effectvieness of "bird points" then you have succeeded.
Thank You
Tracy

[Pat B]

Billy, I don't think there is a size reg on broadheads in GA. Check the reg book. I believe all they say about archery equipment is...it has to be a compound, longbow, recurve or cross bow and the arrow has to be a "broadhead" type. I'll recheck but I don't remember there being a broadhead size limit.   Pat

[billy]

Pat,

I remember several years ago when reading in the GA game regs that they did have a minimal broadhead width...I think 3/4 of an inch.  But it was years ago and I haven't seen this minimum width repeated since then.  I guess the DNR assumes that most people will be hunting with modern broadheads which seem to tout their cutting diameter in all their ads, so broadhead size isn't really a concern.  But you know how the govt is about those kinds of things and would probably say that my bird points were illegal, even though it's not stated in the current regulations.  I remember once when I was hunting in Oregon and was stopped by Oregon State Police (the State Police enforce game laws out there) and he checked my tags to make sure I was legal.  Of course I was, but he didn't say anything about my obsidian points, which were only 1/2" wide (minimum width is 7/8"). 

For anyone else who was upset that I "wasted" the deer,

 I had full intentions of butchering and eating the deer after the test was completed.  That's why I put ice bags in its chest.  But unfortunately a dead deer doesn't pay the bills, The temperature was very warm, I had to work the entire next day, and I was unable to replace the ice bags in time.  Part of the reason for the autopsy was also to see if there was any meat that was still o.k. to eat.  But there wasn't.  The tendons in the hindquarters, legs, and back all had a greenish tint to them, and there were loads of flies around that thing.  That is my only regret about the test...that the deer had to be thrown away.  I can understand that some people might have been upset, but I did as much as I could to preserve the deer.  If I could have sent someone else to work for me on tuesday I would have been able to conduct the test a day earlier and gotten it butchered before it spoiled.

[Justin Snyder]

I still haven't seen my magazine.   I do have to say that I love the idea of testing on a dead deer.  I have tested on road kill before.  It is illegal to pick them up, but there are no regulations on shooting them right there on the side of the road. It is to bad you were unable to keep it cool enough to not spoil, but sometimes we have that problem even when we are just trying to cool them by hanging.  If you don't have access to a walk in refrigerator, it is a peril we all face if the weather turns hot.  
The major concern I have isn't the deer or penetration, it doesn't even have a lot to do with the article.  It is a matter of mathematics.  If you shoot a 1/4" point you have 1/3 the chance of cutting major arteries that you would shooting a 3/4" point. If you miss the major arteries by 1/32" you risk loosing the deer.  The extra width on the point would have finished the deer in real short order.  I don't have enough confidence in my hitting the heart or a major artery every time to reduce the point size I am shooting. From my point of view,  a 1" slice at 7" of penetration is 7 square inches of damage.  A 1/4" point penetrating 14" will only amass 1.75" square inches of damage.  Justin

[D. Tiller]

Kind of why I blieve small points were used is that most hunting bows made my Natives here in the northwest often averaged arround 35 - 40# draw weight. Smaller points would then penetrate further and do more damage. Our bows these days are much heavier in comparison. But I also think small points were likley big game points used for Elk and Bear. Deaper penetration and more through and throughs. I would also only go after bear with these if I had someone allong to keep pumping them out as you are too. Pincusion the sucker! Then RUN!!! 

[ricktrojanowski]

I thought the article was very informative.  It was about the closest possible way to determine actual arrow penetration on a deer.  I always thought bird points were intended for small game, but it seems as though they can be quite lethal on big game in close range.  On the reed shafts did you use phragmites?  If so when is the best time to collect the phrag.

Rick

[richpierce]

One of the best articles I've read.  It would be good to have a comparison someday with larger stone or steel broadheads.

I understand the theory that a larger, wider blade will kill faster because of cutting more arteries.  But any hole in the chest cavity causes the lung on that side to collapse. The right and left sides of the chest are separated by a membrane, so an arrow that does not penetrate to both sides of the chest (entering the cavities for both lungs) does not cause both to collapse.  Deeper penetration, causing both sides to collapse, insures the animal will expire regardless of the amount of bleeding.

We generally think it's the bleeding that kills.  Sure, but that is because the blood is carrying oxygen.  If the animal can't breathe (both lungs collapsed) then the effect is the same.  It's all part of the same system- heart, lungs, blood.  Put any of the 3 out of commission and you have a kill.

[Justin Snyder]

Rich, Your theory is partially correct.  You have to think of the lungs not as a balloon that pops, but as a car tire that deflates.  Air entering the chest cavity through the wound hole creates an air pocket outside the lung and as that grows the lung colapses.  It could take quite some time before the colapse actually happens. If the hole is small or if the arrow still plugs the hole the deflation is even slower. I wont pretend it wont kill them, but if they go for several miles and the hole is small enough that there is little blood outside the hole the deer is usually lost.  Justin

[richpierce]

I agree (being a scientist who studies the lung) and from personal experience, a pneumothorax can slow ya down, but not stop ya!  I think a large entry hole and an arrow shaft wobbling about as the deer bounds away would help deflate the lung faster.  On an animal with thick hair and a good fat layer, it would be hard to get much lung collapse just from poking a smallish hole in the chest.

[D. Tiller]

Also have to take in the slashing of the arrow in the cavity of the animal as it bounds away. Creates a much larger wound especially if its super sharp like and obsidian point!