Red Maple MH Style Board Bow

[bradsmith2010]

Ok I checked out the link,, very interesting,,
the handle set back does not seem that steep in the photo,, but hard to tell
anyway,, maybe another option ,, would be to bend the set back in a stave handle,,
obviously  the bow worked back then,, I think Pearl has a good point about the stave bow being a bit more stable than the glued on handle,, not saying it won't work,, just thinking out loud,,,
best of luck to you with the project,, it looks great so far,, 

[PlanB]

Sorry I made a typo back a ways -- I said I was going to use "hemp" as reinforcing bands -- I meant flax.  I have some hanks of combed flax for reinforcement.

TBB Vol 1 talks about it as a reinforcing material. In this bow, I won't be using it as a backing, though. It will be used in bands around the bow, and particularly in the handle area.

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about:

[blackhawk]

With that handle and poor glue joints its more than likely gonna fail...especially if you used titebond for your glue because titebond requires perfectly flat mating surfaces,and if ya dont it could go pop,especially and even more so with the stress your putting on it with a handle like that...in any event i HIGHLY recommend wrapping those fades very well if you want to continue with it (i wouldnt if it was me personally)..sinew wraps wood be best. You dont see people building wood bows like that handle for a very good reason.

You just posted before me...but i guess its still some what relevant

[PlanB]

Ok I checked out the link,, very interesting,,
the handle set back does not seem that steep in the photo,, but hard to tell
anyway,, maybe another option ,, would be to bend the set back in a stave handle,,
obviously  the bow worked back then,, I think Pearl has a good point about the stave bow being a bit more stable than the glued on handle,, not saying it won't work,, just thinking out loud,,,
best of luck to you with the project,, it looks great so far,, 

Brad I'd thought of a steam bent handle, especially after the steam discussion thread, but I decided the bends would be really severe and the form would be pretty difficult. That's when I thought about the flax as hoop reinforcement -- which is what the original actually used, though probably rawhide. So it seemed in keeping with the original design idea. I think the original, if it broke in use, might not have if binding had extended to the handle area. I notice it was apparently used to reinforce the nock end. If the handle did split an the back pop off before it broke, I think binding would have prevented that. Glue or not, wood is very weak in tension perpendicular to the grain. Binding has been used for millennia to prevent that.

Maybe we wouldn't have that artifact if it had been bound at the handle, so I guess it was a good thing it wasn't, maybe.....

[PlanB]

Thanks blackhawk, I agree, I wouldn't trust glue alone, or even a perfect full depth stave for that kind of sawed to shape set back handle -- it kinda flies in the face of current good bowyer practice. The binding was planned right from the start.

[Stick Bender]

Just a thought a little unconventional but you could drill some dowel holes a little over half limb depth & epoxy dowels threw the handle & limbs the limbs would break before that area would give.

[PlanB]

Thanks stickbender, I thought about treenails, but wanted to do it with banding since it fit the method that the original bowyer used on the limbs. Also I wanted to try flax as a reinforcement.

Last night I put a flax backing strip lengthwise on in the handle area, and this morning when it was dry, I added some bands. I will add another band further out on the fades, but I want to wait until after tillering to go any further with reinforcment.

[Stick Bender]

I like the banding look its realy nice look!

[willie]

PlanB

the flax job looks nice. could you share a little more about the technique and glue that you used?

willie

[LEGIONNAIRE]

I Like this bow very unique.

[dragonman]

hi Plan B....that handle design looks dodgy, if I'm being blunt and  honest ( and for benefit of newbies!!)....good you  have reinforced it. What was you thinking in the first place as to your reasons for doing this? it seems to over complicate the design for no apparent advantage.....there are definately simpler and better ways of joining limbs to a handle!!!

I do wish you all good luck with it though now you have started it and I am sure like you say it will be a good learning experience! and hopefully a good shooter

Dave

[PlanB]

Thanks stick bender, willie, legionnaire, and dragonman!

Willie, TB3, and i masked the sections off, combed the flax, and laid it in place with a brush, saturating fibers. Fibers ar left full length, so a number of wraps to build to thickness desired.

Dave, I think it looks good, but that is a matter (always) of personal opinion. Stickbows of any sort look dodgy to many people shooting compounds, glass bows, etc. As do character bows, stone and reed arrows, etc.  I don't think this is dodgy, but that's just me.

My specific reasons for particular design choices are already given from post one onwards, but let me just repeat the overall reason, also from post #1:

"I was going to do a straight handle for safety sake, but  got caught up half way through roughing it out with a strong desire to do it with the original set back type. I do know what that means in terms of grain violation risk. But I have a few ideas I want to try out to make it more likely to hold together. Since it's a board bow, I'm piecing the handle with a riser. I'm going to try for 50# @ 28" -- I do know the original was likely much more than that, and I'm not making an efficient bow. But I'm doing this for the fun of it, the interest, and just a whole bunch of long time curiosity."

As far as complicating the design, since the original Meare Heath bow had a carved out handle, not bent, not paying attention to ring orientation in any way, anywhere along the back, the ring violations are severe. The back appears steeply cambered -- far beyond the original ring camber.

It apparently had many rawhide bands and crossed reinforcements -- some say for appearance, others as working reinforcement. The original is also broken at the handle. Some say for purposeful reasons, others for structural reasons. Some people consider the MH design a very poor one, with apparently too long and heavy limbs for good performance, along structural deficiencies.

I'm very curious about all of this, and one way of finding out (which is how I like to do things) is by experimenting with these problems oneself. I want to see what happens, on my own bow, if I do something similar. Not the same obviously, in some respects, but similar enough to me to satisfy my curiosity on the points I'm personally interested in.

I do not mean to mislead newbies, or promote what I'm trying as good practice, or suggest that this is the only way to connect two limbs, or that it is a superior way. I'm just doing this because it appeals to me to do it. People will certainly draw their own conclusions, and that's fine. Gives us all something to talk about, yes? And I am sure that it will be a good learning experience not only for me, whether or not a good bow results, but for anyone interested enough to continue to read this thread about something different from the norm (whatever that might be!)

I do know that your well wishes are truly meant, and I think you're a fine and admirable bowyer.

[dragonman]

 I didnt realize that the MH bow had a handle like this....there you go, I dont realy know what I'm talking about...maybe you are on to something!  anyway, it is good to think in an original way, this is how new things are discovered. please let us know how it progresses...interesting

[PlanB]

No problem, Dave. almost all MH style bows built recently have a straight handle, unlike the original bow, so it's easy to miss that point. Plus the original handle broke, so it's easy to see why there haven't been many attempts.

My thought was that if the bands that were applied to the limbs were functional, and they were brought down to the handle, the original might not have broken. I've doodled in pencil some notes on handle pop off, and what I am thinking about with regard to this set-back handle. Hope it's legible and understandable to anyone following this experiment:

[dragonman]

seeing the sketch, it does look like it will work, just make sure to make your joints spot on!