Arrow pass designs

[Badger]

   This weekend at the Salt Flats durring my two day practice session I shot 3 arrows from an unfinished bow just to warm up. Conditions were not the best and I had a slight cross wind. This bow was at best very average in performance as it had yet to have the tips thinned and yet to have its final heat treat and reflex applied. I sent a flight arrow between 370 and 380 yards, further than I have ever sent one. I can only attribute it to one thing, the handle was offset and the arrow made very little contact with the arrow pass. This is also confirmed looking at the bows by Josef which have been so effective at setting records in every class. In flight shooting we look for what works, some of the more subtle things we build into a bow can be hidden within its construction while other features are clearly visible.

    I just now went and checked a bow I had set a record with a year or two ago, same problem, limbs were off center leaving more room for the arrow in the arrow pass. So fellow flightshooters, keep this in mind as we chase these records. It aint all about how fast it comes out of the bow as much as it is how clean it comes out of the bow. Once we get the clean releases down pat then we can start going back to the speed. None of the bows I have considered to be fast bows have never been successful with the light arrows. Always have problems with arrows kicking before they straighten out. I know where my attention will be focused on for next year!

[Aaron H]

You make a great point, thank you for sharing

[Marc St Louis]

Steve
Did we not have this discussion many years ago with Dan and a few others.  My stance was as close to center shot as possible but it seems to me that some disagreed with me.

[Badger]

  That is very possible Mark, Your particular handle design including the narrow arrow support does seem to get the arrows out cleaner. I have always put most of my efforts into broadhead and have just recently shifted. I can't tell you how disappointing it is to see your arrows kicking sideways badly our of all my best bows. It seems like the higher the early tension the worse they want to kick sideways.

[Del the cat]

Thanks for the info.
I noticed the arrow flight a lot with the 110# Elm Warbow as it is about 40mm wide in the grip. We were shooting 3 arrows and I noticed a big difference in flight and distance.
One arrow few consistently about 20 yards left of the others, and the one that left the bow cleanest flew furthest.
Mind 32" flight arrows aren't the norm!
I may have a play with the arrow pass on that molle' I made.
I think my 10yard testing at home is quite revealing, if it's straight at 10 yards, that's good... the problem is, if it isn't straight at 10 yards it can smash
Grass is getting a bit long on the field I use now
Del

[Badger]

  Del, I didn't notice too much problem on ELbs or bows without reflex. James Remp brought a 48" straight bow to the shoot with a handle about 1" wide and an arrow rest attached to the side of the bow. They came out pretty clean. Spine seems to play a big part in it.

[JackCrafty]

   Very interesting, as always.

[BowEd]

Steve...This is a very interesting subject here.I got to know an archer here who was a finish carpenter.Everything just so and exactly right.Very maticulus.Makes self bows and FG bows.Always experimenting.Changing designs etc.Very accomplished bowyer.He has shown me over the years to paper shoot tune arrows,reduction in fletching,arrow passes with zero deflection,and center shot handles etc.It's the difference between consistency and inconsistency,and everything has to be right.Form and release too.All we want to see is the nock flying like a dart away from us.So I can mostly follow what your talking about here.A person has to have a pitbull attitude to get things right.....lol.Some bows seems like they just won't shoot right no matter what the arrow....lol.
My handles are nothing to look at really by the novice.Your gonna laugh here but I shoot off my knuckle with a centershot or close to strike plate but the arrow rides on a very slightly raised area[usually bone or horn inlaid 11/32" circle] not more than 1/16" wide for consistent nocking.No deflection that I can feel or see when things are right.
Distance shooting reveals proper arrow spine.Shortest distance to each point....lol.Gary the carpenter mostly shoots carbides so he cheats....lol.Very informative thread here and thanks.

[Badger]

  Beadman, where I seem to run into problems is with the very light arrows, they straighten out pretty quickly but the very brief time period in which they are not straight is when they loose their speed. If we can see the arrow we know it was not a good shot no matter how true it is flying. The arrows you can't see are the ones that came out right. I like the paper tuning, but it has to be done at very close ranges for flight shooting. I am guessing inside of 10 feet or so.

[BowEd]

I see.Man!!!!.Yep the ones you can't see are right.All of the energy has to go in a direct straight line.Your taking it to a farther degree which I suppose is needed for proper flight shooting.We paper shoot under 5 yards.Just set up a 6' ladder with some butcher paper across between the steps.Kind of get a kick out of 3D shooting with friends arrows with no fletching hitting their mark.Pretty cool really.But that means if I miss the arrow goes in the toolies under leaves never to be found again....lol.Loss of a nice arrow.Probably an hour and a half's worth of work thrown away....lol.
Every bow of yours would probably need a different set of arrows I imagine.I'm sure you can tell I know not too much about taking it to that degree.Wish I had the final solution for you but I think maybe every case is different too yet.Like I read in one statement here a camera to record what is not seen would be the solution I think.Kind of an ace in the hole when you come to the line to shoot an arrow.
Ed

[Marc St Louis]

  Beadman, where I seem to run into problems is with the very light arrows, they straighten out pretty quickly but the very brief time period in which they are not straight is when they loose their speed. If we can see the arrow we know it was not a good shot no matter how true it is flying. The arrows you can't see are the ones that came out right. I like the paper tuning, but it has to be done at very close ranges for flight shooting. I am guessing inside of 10 feet or so.

Yes and the problem with light flight arrows is they are fragile and you can easily "lose" a good arrow on the first shot

[BowEd]

The making of good arrows is as much of an art as a good bow like's been said.Because of you two guys'[Marc & Steve] I've been able to squelch FG shooters myths that these self and sinewed bows don't have good cast.That these wood bows are'nt just a novelty to be hung up on the wall.Kuddos to you guys for sharing your experiences and the ongoing trek to improve.
I was wondering Steve what type of wood do you usually make your arrows out of?

[Selfbowman]

I vote stiff arrow and center shot. An arrow having to work harder to recover is losing flight distance in my oppinion. Now how do we get dence stiff and light?   There lies the answer.
Arvin

[crooketarrow]

 I very seldom post on here but the fist few years. When I first started building bows. I knew someone that build flight bows. I copyed his bows some. He came up with the conclusons.

  He build his bows 16 th or so passed center shot and make or built up as far back on the shelf at the belly. So the arrow made as lease contact with the shelf as possable.

  I shot 5 different bows I made, same arrows with that bow.  Shot as normal then built up the self as far back to the belly as possabe.

  With out exception every bow with a built out shelf,out shot the normal shelf bow.

  I also found out that a clean release is #1 in flight shooting.

  I've out shot my friend with his own bows 8,10 different bows every time.

  Try tis release, this was how HOWARD HILL RELEASED. Release with your first finger first, do this your other 2 fingers open automic'ly. Takeing the thinking about snapping your fingers open.

  This is a release that comes naturally, not though involed. I've help dozzens of people through the years with suckie release's.

  It only takes a try or so to find out. If your third finger burns after your release you've did it. You can't get a cleaner release.

[BowEd]

I guess really to be truly center shot the arrow pass needs to be 3/16" passed center so none of my self bows are ever truly center shot.Very straight in line draw back of string before release is needed by me and the bow held loosely in hand for no torque for the cleanest release I can get.Shooting lots of arrows shows by my arrow flight whether I'm holding the bow correctly or not.Everything has to be right besides the spine of the arrow to get good arrow flight by me.