Mark Stretton 200lb Guinness World Record blog

[Del the cat]

It's not a brick wall, it's logical questioning and responding to your assertions.
E.G Your assertion that the rolling loose involved the arrow being drawn back progressively through the process.

What we are doing is trying to methodically get to the bottom of the claims.
If it has been demonstrated with a 22# bow that a rolling loose gives more distance, then it should be possible to disect the rolling loose and find which component is adding the distance and optimise it.
1. Is it the drawing, lowering and raising of the bow?
2. Is it creating a snatch loose?
3. Is it the crouch down or does this just give a better launch angle?
4. Is it the leap forward?
5. Does it create a longer draw?
Note for 5. There is some overlap here with 1. From the archers viewpoint, due to the foreshortening, it is easy to think you are at full draw when you are an inch short. Maybe the rolling loose extends the draw beyond what would be achieved from a stationary release.

Mind any of this would be difficult to demonstrate conclusively short of programming an industrial robot to perform the actions.
E.G If I do the test and the rolling loose doesn't add distance you'll just say I'm doing it wrong.
Similarly if one of the rolling loose exponents does a static shot and it doesn't go so far, we will just say he's doing it wrong.
What is actually needed is rigorous discussion and experiment.

We don't mean to be ganging up on you, but you do rather adjust your claims an references like shifting sands or make assertions without providing links, or first hand data.
When you do make a specific testable claim then there is a chance to prove or disprove it. Karl Popper would be turning in his grave reading this thread!
Del

[WillS]

Del, I don't think I've made any claims and changed them...?

The only thing I think I've said here as a statement of fact is that Joe sets his records using a rolling loose.  Which, with the video evidence proving it, he does. 

There is also a video I posted that is shot from behind him that clearly shows the arrow moving backwards until shot.

I don't feel like anybody's "ganging up" on me at all, but it does seem that people can't quite differentiate between modern day world record attempt flight shooting with massively heavy bows, and medieval military archery.  Every time this discussion happens, people eventually pull out the "there's no way they'd do THAT in the middle ages" despite it being a completely irrelevant point.

You never see the rolling loose being used until somebody (usually somebody incredibly experienced) is trying to set a distance record.  That alone, with no other elements involved, should go a long way towards accepting it as a valid technique.  If everybody used it constantly and claimed it made all aspects of archery better, I'd be disputing it myself. 

[PatM]

It's like a brick wall in here.

Nobody seems to have got the basic idea that this WASN'T used during war.  This is a completely modern method designed by modern archers using 170lb bows. 

Nobody is claiming it was used in the middle ages, nobody is claiming it helps you shoot heavier bows and nobody is claiming it's faster.

It was the only method used to break world records.  That's all anybody knows.

They weren't shooting to break records in the middle ages.  They didn't need to shoot beyond about 200 yards, whereas with the same equipment the rolling loose is being used to break 300 yards.

By the way Mike, it has been tested with a lighter bow.  Michael Heinz made a video testing it.  The rolling loose added 50 feet when using a 22lb bow, compared to a static release.  But like I said, once the video came out all the guys clamouring that the rolling loose is rubbish went quiet and stopped talking about it.

 I couldn't even see the video but I guarantee it was biased to make the rolling loose appear superior. Rod picked it apart quite adequately.

[OTDEAN]

SERIOUSLY WILL,

Do you really think, that at a time, the 15th century to be precise, the zenith of military archery, do you honestly believe medieval bowmen would not have figured out to use the 'rolling loose' to gain a tactical advantage in range, if it did.  Your claim that it is a modern invention can not be proven.  I defy anyone in the past 50 years to say they have invented something new with wooden bows that has not been done before, to be honest we are re-discovering what what lost with selfbows.  I just can't accept that people trained in artillery bows from the age of 7 would not have known they could get extra range by using the 'rolling loose' to give a tactical advantage in a battle.  To suggest otherwise is nonsense.

[HoorayHorace]

I think guys in the EWBS are wrapped in their own dogma like the rolling loose and nothing will change their minds that it does what they say it does for range, I reckon its just dogma to make it look more sexy.

I couldn't imagine fellas during the War of the Roses in a bow line at Towton shooting bows 100lbs plus prancing around like nancy's doing some rolling dance to get some extra yardage on range.  The opposite forces would probably have pissed tha sens laughing.

The military is all about disapline. I did 4 years to know that.

I've shot longbow for 6 years now, and I think the warbow people have got it way wrong.

I've been doing a lot of research on them as of late. Seems all military uniforms and dancing around after shooting.


Prancing around after every shot seems odd, and I doubt would be tolerated in the armies of the day.

[HoorayHorace]

It's like a brick wall in here.

Nobody seems to have got the basic idea that this WASN'T used during war.  This is a completely modern method designed by modern archers using 170lb bows. 

Nobody is claiming it was used in the middle ages, nobody is claiming it helps you shoot heavier bows and nobody is claiming it's faster.

It was the only method used to break world records.  That's all anybody knows.

They weren't shooting to break records in the middle ages.  They didn't need to shoot beyond about 200 yards, whereas with the same equipment the rolling loose is being used to break 300 yards.

By the way Mike, it has been tested with a lighter bow.  Michael Heinz made a video testing it.  The rolling loose added 50 feet when using a 22lb bow, compared to a static release.  But like I said, once the video came out all the guys clamouring that the rolling loose is rubbish went quiet and stopped talking about it.

I don't doubt that the rolling loose adds more yards to the shot.

I will have to try it with my Kassia Bear (95) @ 30 and see for myself, though I can see that pushing off whilst loosing the arrow would add velocity. 

But a few vides on YouTube show archers loosing an arrow, then jumping around after the shot.

[OTDEAN]

I agree with you Horace.  I reckon the warbow guys have figured how to draw the heavy bows and have demonstrated that often.  The rolling loose is just some daft dance that kind of makes a regular loose look vaguely like something worth learning because it may give you an 'edge'. 

I joined the warbow society as an associate, to see what it was about, I have to say I was not impressed.  The forums on the website is dead and a few members just said it was because everyone uses facebook and I was told to use that as I was keen to discuss proper technique as I attempted to up my bow poundage with my own home made longbows.  My experience of the society was that I was booted out of the face book group because they did not know me.  To say I was cheesed off after only just joining and paying a £5 for the privilege left me bitter.  Seems like a bunch of lads that just meet up once in a while to hero worship those blokes pulling big ass bows.  Not really an open society to welcome new people and  teach how to shoot proper and correct medieval form, more like an ego trip for people who think they know best.

[HoorayHorace]

Don't think we have anything like that over here, just normal archery clubs.

Would be embarrased to be out with a bunch of people shooting their bows whilst wearing military fatigues though 

Strange, but horses for courses I guess.

This guy is in the book I recently bought. Seems to have a pretty standard/normal technique

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NdXjq7c1R5I

[WillS]

I agree with you Horace.  I reckon the warbow guys have figured how to draw the heavy bows and have demonstrated that often.  The rolling loose is just some daft dance that kind of makes a regular loose look vaguely like something worth learning because it may give you an 'edge'. 

I joined the warbow society as an associate, to see what it was about, I have to say I was not impressed.  The forums on the website is dead and a few members just said it was because everyone uses facebook and I was told to use that as I was keen to discuss proper technique as I attempted to up my bow poundage with my own home made longbows.  My experience of the society was that I was booted out of the face book group because they did not know me.  To say I was cheesed off after only just joining and paying a £5 for the privilege left me bitter.  Seems like a bunch of lads that just meet up once in a while to hero worship those blokes pulling big ass bows.  Not really an open society to welcome new people and  teach how to shoot proper and correct medieval form, more like an ego trip for people who think they know best.

Considering every shoot is heavily attended, by kids, wives, girlfriends, parents... All shooting various bow types and weights, your claim is a bit daft to say the least. 

The fact that you got "kicked" out of the Facebook group was a result of one particularly childish moron trying to cause trouble on his little ego trip (he's still bobbing up everywhere interestingly enough, repeating his inane comments as if nobody knows it's him haha!)  It did leave a few trust issues sadly, but in general it's pretty healthy, and there's been a lot of new members lately.  As Mark told you, on the thread.  Where you got his name wrong.  Twice.   

Turn up at a shoot, ask questions, be involved.  Watch them using these techniques first hand.  Or sit on a forum and complain about it.  It makes no difference to anybody else, but bad mouthing a society you've never shot with isn't really the way to go, is it.  Not very dignified.

Anyway, as Del said ages ago, it's an irritating conversation that goes round in circles because nobody is willing to change opinions on it.  Let's try and avoid getting personal, and all agree to never bring it up again

[Heffalump]

SERIOUSLY WILL,

Do you really think, that at a time, the 15th century to be precise, the zenith of military archery, do you honestly believe medieval bowmen would not have figured out to use the 'rolling loose' to gain a tactical advantage in range, if it did.  Your claim that it is a modern invention can not be proven.  I defy anyone in the past 50 years to say they have invented something new with wooden bows that has not been done before, to be honest we are re-discovering what was lost with selfbows.  I just can't accept that people trained in artillery bows from the age of 7 would not have known they could get extra range by using the 'rolling loose' to give a tactical advantage in a battle.  To suggest otherwise is nonsense.

First published in 1515......(quoting an even older book)....this is just 100 years after Agincourt (I know of no earlier written European archery instruction)......

"As a book called "The Art of War" tells us, an archer who wishes to shoot in good style must attend to several points, both as respects his body and his feet. First of all his arrows must be on his right side, as his sword is on his left. He should poise his bow on the thumb of the hand with which he holds it when he shoots, and for butt shooting balance it exactly. If the bow is well made the upper limb will be the longest. While doing this, he should draw an arrow from his quiver in two motions, the reason being that unless he had a very long arm, the arrows would remain jammed in the quiver, from which the feathers would suffer. Then, holding the arrow by the middle, he must put it in the bow,[8] and there hold it between two fingers, and you must know that these two fingers are the first and second. And every good archer should, as I have said before, draw his bow with three fingers and to his right breast, as by doing so he can pull a longer arrow. The foot of the side on which he holds the bow should be in front of the other, the toe only touching the ground, so that when the heel is brought down (without moving the foot), the side may turn towards the butt, and give a good impetus to the arrow. As to drawing, it can be done in two ways; some draw with the bow hand raised, and some with it low down, and both are good in different ways. Drawing with the bow hand low is good for butt and target shooting, and is a more natural way of shooting than with the bow hand high, besides which it assists the loose, and also because the arm, not being raised so high, is, in case of necessity, less exposed.

You must know also that there are several ways of loosing, but all depending on two things-on the drawing hand, for one must have and hold the string on the second joint of the first finger, and on the first joint of the third, and on the step, of which there are three kinds, that is to say, with one, two, or three steps, the one step loose is done in two ways; one is stepping forward with the foot of the bow hand side, and the other by bringing beck the arm, pushing out the bow and arrow, and at the same time stepping back with the other foot; this step straightens the arm, but it must be a long and sharp step back. The two other ways are by taking two steps and three steps. To shoot with two steps, a backward step must be taken with the hindermost foot, so that on bringing the front foot down, sufficient impetus is given to effect the loose. For the three step, the front foot is moved forward, then the bow is thrust forward as explained above, and the hinder foot is brought back in such a way that when the arrow is loosed one can step forward with the front foot.

According to custom a good archer should draw ten palms' breadths of arrow. There are many who draw more, but of those who draw more, there are many who shoot a weaker arrow by doing so. There are many good archers who don't draw so much, yet do not fail to make long shots and shoot as strong as the others, but if their reach is sufficient, they should pull the above-named length, for they would be finer archers by doing so. I venture to say that it is impossible to shoot a long arrow in an ungraceful way, if the bow is pushed forward.

If you wish to become a good archer you must practice in two ways, namely, at the butts under the screen, and at a target. For it is easier to learn to shoot by shooting under the screen, than in any other way, and in order that you should know how the screen if fixed, I will tell you. The screen should be placed across the range, half way between the butts, the bottom edge being one foot abort the ground for every ten paces there is between the butts. Thus if the butts are one hundred paces apart, the screen would be ten feet high, and the bottom edge should have bells on it, so that even if the feather of the arrow should touch it, one may know it by hearing the bells ring. And the said screen should be at least half an aune in depth, so that no mistake may be made.

For target shooting, as I have already said, round bows should be used. For good archers the range should be three hundred paces. Nevertheless I have formerly seen shooting at four hundred paces, but it must be admitted that the archers were first-class ones (bons exquiz archiers)"......

....indeed, there is not that much new under the sun is there chaps?!

John T. 

 

[WillS]

Fantastic post John.  Wish there was a "like" button!

As a side note (specifically for John, after a convo on FaceBook) - notice the paragraph about drawing the arrows - that works quite nicely with an arrow bag/quiver with an open bottom.  There's no way the feathers of the arrow would be affected if they were drawn up and out, so they must be drawn down through the bag.

[Heffalump]

Fantastic post John.  Wish there was a "like" button!

As a side note (specifically for John, after a convo on FaceBook) - notice the paragraph about drawing the arrows - that works quite nicely with an arrow bag/quiver with an open bottom.  There's no way the feathers of the arrow would be affected if they were drawn up and out, so they must be drawn down through the bag.

Thanks Will and "Yes" on the arrow bag convo! 

John T. 

[Lucasade]

Hooray Horace - I'm not sure what material you're looking at but the only military fatigues I think I've seen in the EWBS stuff online is the guy in the background of the video on this thread...

[HoorayHorace]

That and his buddy in the camo pants. Not mocking it, so if you like wearing it then good for you.

A few guys turn up to the annual Sharps rifle shoot I attend in military style fatigues. Only a few out of 70 odd.

Not my thing, but up to them in the end.

Never felt the need personally to wear that stuff in my civilian life

[OTDEAN]

Have to say John T. I take my hat off to you, I found that a really interesting post.  I had never read that before and I don't think there many medieval archery books historical or modern that do not rest on my book shelf.

Will S:

I was told I was booted from the facebook group for the EWBS Will because of some troll, I get that, what really pissed me of was the fact the moderators booted me not once but three times after they accepted my invite.  I never even made any damn posts in the facebook group to even warrant getting booted.  One of your members from Leeds explained it was because I was not known to the group and therefore was booted along with other unknowns.  If thats the way the society treats new members I wouldn't even both turning up at a meet because it sounds like a shower of shite to be honest.

How the hell is anyone supposed to interact with fellow members when you get booted three times before you even say hello or introduce yourself. 

I would turn up at shoot but its kinda pointless when you can't even interact on social media.

Enought said.