Founding a new worldwide Primitive flightbow federation?

[Badger]

  I would agree to 62", I hope the feed back keeps comming in. Any feed back welcome even if you are not presently involved in flight.

[avcase]

Steve,
From the history files: The broadhead event was created to catch the interest of folks who's primary interest in archery is building hunting gear.  It was used to attract bow manufacturers and give them a forum to fight for bragging rights.  It attracted some interest for the modern materials bow people until Harry Drake entered into the fray for Browning Archery.  Harry started creating one-off "broadhead flight" super bows that blew the competition off the charts and it dwindled into just another regular flight competition, except with heavy arrows.  More recently, Broadhead flight seemed to have regained some interest with the addition of longbow and primitive events.  I think it is kind of fun because the arrows are heavy and move slow enough that you can watch the flight, but I feel it failed it's originally intended purpose.

I don't think regulating the grains per pound would make much difference and it adds complexity to the equipment qualification process.  It was busy enough at our last flight shoot making sure everyone's arrows were above a set number of grains.  If we regulate grains per pound, then it still gives the advantage to the people with the longest draw length.

Alan

[avcase]

Steve,
Why would you propose minimal fletching dimensions for a regular flight arrow?

[Del the cat]

  I would agree to 62", I hope the feed back keeps comming in. Any feed back welcome even if you are not presently involved in flight.

Just realized I need to add another clause.

No part of the limb shall be wider than the arrow pass. There shall be no arrow shelf or support, any grip shall not be thick enough to act as an arrow shelf.

I'll edit the document and publish an issue 2. Off to bed now... it's 11pm over here, and it's work tomorrow for me
Del

[Badger]

  Good question Allen, I was going by our present rules. I would be more than happy to scrub that.

[avcase]

When it comes to establishing official primitive world records, I feel like the event really loses it's soul without natural strings.  Primitive Flight shooting has helped keep the art of making high performance natural fiber bow strings from completely dying out.  It is a pain if your only focus is bows.  Making a great flight arrow from natural materials is a pain too.  On the other hand, I wouldn't prevent anyone from shooting a primitive bow with a synthetic string.  I would simply note it and the distance would be grouped with the modern longbows or recurves.  Steve Gardner shot his primitive simple composite with the modern longbows because he didn't have a natural fiber string ready, and he was very competitive.  The next day, he shot the same bow with a linen string and smashed the 50-lb Primitive simple composite record.

Our current English Longbow rules are really an oddball because it does allow synthetic strings and synthetic arrow nocks. 

I sympathize with those who disagree because I originally disliked the natural fiber string requirement.  It made it just a little harder than it would have been otherwise.  I have accumulated a pretty ridiculous stockpile of premium natural fiber string materials and am more than willing to help out anyone who wants to try shooting flight this way.

Alan

[Badger]

  Allen, on the broadhead event I simply cannot think of any other way to level the playing field and maintain any kind of safe limit to how far a bow is drawn. A 56# bow could compete in the 50# class simply by handicapping hs arrow weight. A properly run flight station should not miss a beat with this. The main goal is to make it more inclusive to anyone who might want to compete. The broadhead would strictly be ceremonious  and be a big help in standardizing and limiting draw in a safe manner. An archer could go as heavy as he pleased with his arow so precison would not be neccessary at all. He would simply have a minimum arrow weight allowed.

[Badger]

   I would go along with natural string requirement in the regular flight division. I am more open in the traditional classes whose primary purpose I see is to get more involved in the sport.

[avcase]

This is what we have done in the past.  If someone has a 56# bow and wanted to shoot it with the 50# bows but don't want to shorten their arrows, then they would tape a small block of wood to the front of the bow to act as a draw limiter.  It takes a minute, doesn't require modifications to the bow or arrows, and works pretty well.

-Alan

[Badger]

  Allen, the idea is to level the playing field, sometimes it will not mean the simplest solution. I don't want something that is a no brainer. We have plenty enough brains in primitive archery to deal with a simple formula. This traditional class I am proposing will have no connection or resemblance to our present organization. It is targeted more toward showcasing and comparing bows as opposed to regular flight where all aspects of the set up are of great importance.

[Marc St Louis]

Keeping the rules true to the Primitive nature is nice but finding top quality natural fiber string is no easy task and I would be inclined towards leniency in this case and allow modern fibers just to attract more participants.  The difference in the distance you are going to get if using a FF string versus a high quality linen string is going to be virtually non-existent anyway and your not going to have to worry about the string parting ways with the bow.

[avcase]

Marc,
I also wouldn't get hung up on the string material for local shoots where official world record status isn't at stake.  However, I would encourage and highlight on the results those who do use a natural string.

I agree that it is possible to come close to matching the performance of a very low grade fast flight string with the best linen, but that is only because we have events that push us to figure out how to accomplish this.  I hope we can keep this in place for a long time to come.

Alan

[Del the cat]

Marc,
I also wouldn't get hung up on the string material for local shoots where official world record status isn't at stake.  However, I would encourage and highlight on the results those who do use a natural string.

I agree that it is possible to come close to matching the performance of a very low grade fast flight string with the best linen, but that is only because we have events that push us to figure out how to accomplish this.  I hope we can keep this in place for a long time to come.

Alan

I've just ordered some single ply hemp yarn , so I'll do some stuff with natural fibres where I'm willing to risk the bow.
Del

[Badger]

       One of the main things I would take into consideration is that writng the rules in such a way where we don't change them later. Strings could become a big enough issue with archers as to limit paticipation even more than it is allready limited. It could become an issue where 2 or 3 years later we were wishing we would have given more slack here.

   I also like to idea of discouraging the temptation to compare the two flight shooting organizations. Because we will be training officials over the internet without much screening we will never attain official status. Well respected is about the best we can hope for. Allowing synthetic strings will be a clear indicator of a difference between the two of us.

    All my practice strings are now made with fast flite blended with linen. I uses 4 strands fast flite and 6 strands linen 7 strand. The weight of the string is where it should be but it doesn't break. I have no performance advantage when testing but I do have a depedable string.

[avcase]

Maybe a good compromise is to always report the string material used with the results. I think it will shine a spotlight on those who do use natural materials, but it won't shut out those who haven't mastered them. It isn't as big a deal where world records are not in the mix.

Natural fiber strings would be a good topic on its own. A premium durable linen string for a 50# 62" bow is around 85 grains (fully served with heavily reinforced loops).  However, 200+ grains seem more typical for those making heavily waxed Flemish twist strings. A premium modern material string for flight is maybe a little over 30 grains, with most of the weight in the loops.

I haven't found good quality hemp yet. Reeled silk is available, and is the safest and most forgiving. Linen is the stiffest, but has zero tolerance for uneven tension on the strands and doesn't handle low humidity very well.

Alan