Author Topic: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine  (Read 84314 times)

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Offline D. Tiller

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2007, 04:03:13 pm »
Curious here! How much better was the roman ballista over a bow or crossbow? I've seen some things on the history chanel but they did not really impress me to much as to how mush more powerfull they were over a bow. Was it increased range? Better punch or what?
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Offline DanaM

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2007, 06:12:50 pm »
That is a freaking awesome point can't wait to see this finished Dane.
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2007, 11:42:03 am »
Curious here! How much better was the roman ballista over a bow or crossbow? I've seen some things on the history chanel but they did not really impress me to much as to how mush more powerfull they were over a bow. Was it increased range? Better punch or what?

I think the first advantage is sheer power. I have no idea exactly how much poundage this machine will have, and the one reconstruction made from the actual artifact was undepowered (not enough rope was used for the torsion springs on the reconstruction), and that is really one of my top priorities. They were far too powerful to span (draw) like a self bow, or a cross bow, so you use your entire body weight to span this machine. A curved and padded belly rest will go at the end of the stock to facilitate spanning. All accounts show these had a very fast, flat tragectory, and unlike self bow arrows, which you can see coming at you (especially in massed volley fire), the ballista bolts were impossible to spot until you were skewered. There is one instance with a larger scorpion where the enemy warrior was literrally pinned to a tree through the spine. The bolts punched through shields and any known armor, and were used as sniper weapons out farther than the range of a bow, they were so accurate.

Here is the home page of Airot Iriatre, who is heavily involved in Roman artillary. http://198.144.2.125/Siege/Aitor/Aitor%20Iriarte.htm His specilization is the later metal framed machines (cheiroballistra) but I can't find any performance info on his site for his own work.

Testing will be indepth for this machine, including chronograph, maile penatration testing, flight shooting, etc. I do plan to shoot some videos to post here showing the machine in action. I only wish I could finish it tomorrow and get it to the range! But, it should be done by this coming spring.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2007, 11:44:29 am »
That is a freaking awesome point can't wait to see this finished Dane.

Isn't it a great point! I'm really psyched, and will name that bolt in Andy's honor (and under no circumstances loose that bolt :) ).

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2007, 05:12:08 pm »
Dane are you going to make the Ballista with inward or outward pulling arms? I tend to think the inward pulling arms would produce a lot more torsion and velocity on the bolts.

David T
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2007, 06:04:37 pm »
Outward swinging arms for both the baby scorpion and the larger 4" one (meaning spring diameter). I am not that interested in the inward swinging ones for now, these are enough of a project for the time being, but you are right, far more efficient. The metal framed ones are a much later design idea, as well, and my own interest in Roman history lays primarily with the earler periods. One day, perhaps, but the woodwork is part of what is so appealing about making these machines.

I was just calculating bronze requirements (still working on the numbers). Yet another skill to acquire. Casting my own parts will save a huge amount of money over finding a machinist willing to do the work, and I'll have more bragging rights, :)
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2007, 03:15:25 pm »
An update about the process of planning to cast the bronze plates, washers (called choinikides in Greek, modiolus in Latin), linear ratchets, pawls, and trigger assembly.

I worked out the dimensions of each part in cubic inches, multiplying that number by the density of bronze, the rule of thumb (different alloys would change that slightly) being .3125 pounds per cubic inch. So, a plate 8.5” long by 1” wide at 0.125 inches in depth (1/8”) would need .664 lbs of metal, and if I make it .0625” thick (1/16”), it will be .332 lbs. of bronze. Keep in mind I need to go over the numbers quite a few more times to make sure I don’t come up short during a casting run.

Overall, I will need approx. 4.026 lbs. of bronze at .0125 thick, and half that, 2.0113 lbs. at .0625”. This is for the plating alone. Factoring in the linear ratchets and pawls and bowstring pawl, and the modiolus and associate counter-plates, we are talking about 7 lbs. of bronze, with heavier thickness components. Probably, I will go with the more sturdy parts, and factor in more bronze for spurs and gates, of course. I expect the machine will come in at around 15 pounds when completed.

As for alloys, I may use silicon bronze, but am starting to source scrap metal dealers in my area to give me perhaps better prices and increased options. I only hope the evil Breaker from the movie 13 Ghosts is not lurking around when I visit scrap yards, lol.

I will be positing photos of my melting oven when it is complete (only partially built now), but if you can picture 2.5’ tall metal cylinder lined with refractory (furnace concrete) with a hinged lid and on a wheeled cart made of rebar, you have a good idea of what the thing will look like. It will be fired with regular propane in a standard bbq tank, with a 10’ hose attached to a commercial adjustable regulator to give me up to 35 pounds of pressure, more than the standard 5 pound regulator you get on your grill. It will weigh about 90 lbs, and the basic tools I will be using will be a #6 clay graphite crucible, iron crucible tongs, iron pouring shank, safety clothing, face shield, stirring rods, etc. The molds will be green sand molds in wooden flasks. The bottom edges of the plates will be beveled inward as part of the pattern I’ll make for the parts, to facilitated creating the sand mold and to give clean plate to plate joints when attached to the machine with the bronze nails. Safety is my absolutely number 1 priority during casting, as exploding molten bronze would not be fun to be around. That would make a bow exploding on a tillering tree pale in comparison, eh :).

BTW, bit of trivia: Katapeltes is the Greek word we derive the word catapult from, and means shield piercer or breaker.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 03:18:18 pm by Dane »
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline DanaM

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2007, 07:02:29 pm »
Sounds awesome Dane but we must have pictures ;) You just know Justin is gonna complain unless there are pictures ;D
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2007, 07:30:03 pm »
Dana, a photo of my sheet of scrawled figures will be very boring :)

I will indeed post pics as soon as something is pic-worthy.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2007, 09:05:57 pm »
Dane, are you sure no one out there is making these for sale? Might be a lot easier and less frustrating!  ;D  If you find them let me know and I will definatly find a way to buy one!

David T
“People are less likely to shoot at you if you smile at them” - Mad Jack Churchill

Offline Loki

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2007, 03:44:05 am »
I've never seen any for sale or with the correct string for that matter,Dane's making something special here.

Andy
Durham,England

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2007, 07:53:49 pm »
Dane, are you sure no one out there is making these for sale? Might be a lot easier and less frustrating!  ;D  If you find them let me know and I will definatly find a way to buy one!

David T

As Andy stated, no one I have seen makes these as an item you can purchase retail, or even customized. I do know of one Englishman who does build Roman machines on commission, though, Len is his first name.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2007, 07:59:39 pm »
I've never seen any for sale or with the correct string for that matter,Dane's making something special here.

Andy

Thanks Andy. I have made a big decision today, and hope you are not disappointed.

Instead of sinew rope for the springs, I have made the decision to make horsehair rope, a good alternative, cheaper, and very historically correct. In fact, I just place an order for 1 lb. of horse hair (tail hair) to get started. I'll be pressing my spinning wheel into action soon! Although, I can also use my hand spindle to make it more authentic. I plan to practice with it tonight on wool fiber, since I am not very good with a spindle yet.

Man, I can not believe how many skills are being pressed into the completion of this machine.

Greenfield, Western Massachusetts

Offline wolfsire

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #58 on: November 13, 2007, 09:21:08 pm »
Pic of spinning in action? ;D
Steve in LV, NV

Offline Dane

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Re: In progress Roman manuballista - torsion arrow firing machine
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2007, 10:20:56 pm »
Sure, but only when I have material to spin (in this case, using the spinning wheel to create threads). I have no indea yet how much rope one can make from a pound of horsehair, but we will all find out.

Dane
Greenfield, Western Massachusetts