Author Topic: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon  (Read 58207 times)

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Offline paulc

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2009, 03:30:35 pm »
All I will say Hawkbow is these wolves are not an introduced species...they were here long before europeans first set foot on this continent and are an integral part of the natural system.  It is mankind and our sprawling agriculture and homes(second and third in some cases) and misguided claim to exclusive rights to the dirt under our feet that is the root of the problem.  Managment of the wolf population is absolutely necessary just as the elk and deer need to be managed.  

I for one will not advocate shooting wolves for simply being wolves until I see actual evidence that they are about to or have overwhelmed the deer and elk populations.  In spite of the Feds being feds I don't think they will allow the wolves to destroy the game animals we all pay taxes hunt...no hunting no taxes and we all know how the feds love their taxes.

Offline El Destructo

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2009, 04:27:15 pm »
Paul...ya need to read up on this Subjest some before going off....these are not Native Species....these are Canadian Grey Timber Wolves that are three times the size of our Native Red Wolves....Not from here introduced into Yellowstone and other National Parks along with various States they were brought in from areas deep in the Northwest territories of Canada...These Wolves live primarily on Moose...Elk and Whitetail deer....hell they even take down Bison...and kill for the sake of killing.... they will even drive out or kill Coyote Packs...they dont take any guff from any Species including Bears

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« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 04:35:45 pm by El Destructo »
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Offline robbsbass

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2009, 04:33:43 pm »
 Dana you brought up PETA so I guess I can add my two cents worth, for what they are worth. PETA was the main reason that the spring bear hunt in Ontario was cancelled, now we are overrun with black bears and when you have a problem, you can't shoot them leagally, and the Ministry hasn't got time for you. Go figure
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Offline paulc

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2009, 05:52:04 pm »
timber wolves of some flavor or another are native to pretty much the entire north american continent, red wolves are native to the southeast.  So with that in mind wolves are native to pretty much all of north america.  I have never heard of anyone suggesting timber wolves for anywhere in the south east but if someone could show me evidence to support that timber wolves had a historic range here in GA I would not have a problem with them being reintroduced into wilderness areas here in GA or somewhere else in the south east.  There is definitely a difference between a red wolf and a timber wolf but to try and claim a meaningful difference between a canandian timber wolf and a wolf from montana or oregon or minnesota is invalid. 

wolves will definitely kill a coyote if given the opportunity because they compete for similar resources.  that is how it works and to wring our hands about that suggests a lack of understanding about how the natural world works.  We might as well get upset when a pike eats the yellow perch we were trying to catch.  It sucks for that coyote or perch for sure but that is how the system is set up.  and to apply moral values and judgements to what an animal does is up to you but I can't see any validity to it.  Only humans are capable of immoral or abhorrent behavior because we (hopefully) have an opportunity to learn right from wrong.  Animals have no way of learning under what circumstances it is okay to kill.  If we can morally kill animals then animals can morally kill animals.  The attempt to claim that our killing is somehow more moral or defensible does not stand up to critical thought.

And yeah, el destructo I do have a background in this stuff as I have spent the last 15yrs of my life working in the natural science and education field.  My views may not be yours but that does not mean I just blowing hot air

Offline hawkbow

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2009, 06:35:38 pm »
Paulc, around here the coyotes actually follow the wolves around.. they have learned to capitalize on the wolfs tendancy to only eat a small portion of the kill before moving on... easy food for the song dogs.. let the wolves do the work and then eat your fill... Hawk
IT IS BETTER TO LOSE WITH HONOR. THAN TO WIN THROUGH DECEPTION...


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Offline david w.

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2009, 07:45:32 pm »
If there were wolves eating my livelyhood or decimating the deer herds, I would shoot it and not say anything.

Having wolves here would put the big IL outfitters out of bussiness though::)

Having all of your livestock eaten is a huge loss and none of us that do not live where wolves do or ranch were there are wolves really don't know much about this topic to say much, and I am one of them
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Offline Keenan

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2009, 07:51:48 pm »
 I'm glad to see this turn into an interesting and informative discussion. It has to be one of the most controversial topics around. The best out come would be that we all learn what the straight out facts are and land on a balance that meets in the middle. I think most of us agree that wolves are as much of the food chain as humans but left unchecked can cause allot of harm.
  As some would see humans as controlling and manipulating everything in creation. There must also be the understanding that we have intelligence, and with that have a responsibility to manage. This is what has brought our elk and deer herds to flourish and grow.
  We can argue about strains and genetics and who has more right then the other but that doesn't accomplish much good or bring balance.  If we can somehow meet in the middle, let wolves exist yet numbers be controlled, it may be that as hunters we can have more voice in the matter and make a bigger difference for the benefit of everything.
 Also there has to be some care and coverage to compensate those affected by wolf predation.

Offline hawkbow

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2009, 07:54:06 pm »
Well put David, I wish things were different for the wolves, they were put back into a habitat where the final outcome is certain destruction of them and the wildlife they hunt, if allowed to continue like it has been for the last fourteen years here in Wyoming...I feel for Keenan and other hunters in other states, the fed has been relocating some of our problem wolves to other states in hopes of a better outcome there... from experence i can say the final chapter in this story will be a sad one for the wolves and the habitat they are thrust into.. Hawk
IT IS BETTER TO LOSE WITH HONOR. THAN TO WIN THROUGH DECEPTION...


Mike "Hawk" Huston

Offline Hillbilly

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2009, 08:55:41 pm »
I don't think the problem is the wolves themselves, they have been part of the ecosystem here for thousands of years before we came along. We used to have both timber wolves and red wolves here in the Southern Appalachians, and they didn't decimate the deer or elk or buffalo herds. The last documented timber wolf in the Southeast was killed here in my county only a few miles from where I live in(I believe) the late 1920's. The difference is that in the old days, there were millions of square miles of wild land and an almost unlimited population of game animals living in it. We started killing everything off and settling the land in the 1700's here, and by the early 1800's, our elk and buffalo were completely wiped out, and the deer not far from it. The big predators like wolves and panthers were mostly gone by then too-a few hung on here in the wildest parts of the Smokies until the early 1900's. (The last documented mountain lions in the region were killed here in my immediate area at around the same time that the last wolf died.) Top-end predators are very important in a balanced and healthy system, but nowadays, wild land is fragmented and scattered in small patches here and there and there are basically no healthy and balanced ecosystems left. There is no longer unlimited space or unlimited prey for wolves. The problem is us. Wolves are fascinating, beautiful creatures, the very epitome of wilderness. I think the world is a better place with wolves in it. But the sad truth is, there are few places left that will support them. I wish wolves could live here again, but it's unlikely. The government tried reintroducing red wolves here in the Smoky Mountains National Park a few years ago. It didn't work, because the wolves didn't know how to read the signs along the park boundaries. Even in the biggest chunk of existing wilderness in the Southeast, there wasn't enough room for them. They kept going outside the park and killing livestock, and roaming wherever they took a notion to, which is just how wolves roll. But the land base just isn't there like it used to be, and there were too many conflicts, so the government people (supposedly)  rounded them all up and took them away. They reintroduced more at the other end of NC in the Alligator River Wildlife Refuge, and so far, that seems to be working out, because there are a small amount of wolves in a large wild area with an overpopulated deer herd. At some point, the population of wolves will grow bigger than the area will support, and something will have to be done. I think wolves are a legitimate part of an ecosystem, but in today's conditions, any population of wolves would have to be managed to keep them from eating themselves out of a job-reintroducing wolves without keeping the population to the number that the area will support won't work. They are a vital part of the system, but so is everything else. Just like in Africa, protected elephant populations are limited to national parks surrrounded by human settlements, and they have nowhere else to go and soon overpopulate until they destroy the land to the point that nothing can live there unless they are culled back to a number that can live there without harming everything else. It's sad that we've gotten to that point, but it's just the way the world is-the only other solution is to reduce our numbers, but I don't see any politicians standing in line to suggest that. I would love to be able to hear a wild wolf howl here again, but I have also been in the situation of trying to raise livestock and keep them alive in an area full of coyotes and bears. I have seen what the coyotes (non-native to this area, but here in large numbers now, twice the size of western 'yotes, and hunt in large packs like wolves) have done to the deer herds here in the mountains. Nowadays, if you even see a deer in a season's hunting in this county, you've done well. I would agree with reintroducing predators that are native to an area, but I would also say that in a limited area with limited prey, the number of wolves would have to be kept extremely limited also for the whole thing to work.
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Offline Keenan

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2009, 10:18:37 pm »
Vey well put Hillbilly. In fact I think that is hitting the nail on the head on the whole topic in general. ;)

Offline paulc

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2009, 10:12:30 am »
Nice post Hillbilly, not much to add to that.

Offline hawkbow

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2009, 11:31:29 am »
Well put Hillbilly, this has been a fun discussion.. it is cool to hear the opinions of other hunters from other areas..... although we may disagree concerning the reintroduction or what will fix the problem, it is always good to see fellow sportsmen standing up for what they believe in 8) Hawk
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Offline DanaM

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2009, 12:38:50 pm »
Here's a link to the website that has been studying the wolf and moose population on Isle Royal in Lake Superiorfor 50 years.
Its a unique situation as its an island and the only major prey is the moose. I guess you could say its a static ecosystem.

http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/ann_rep/ann_rep/home.html

for more info just Googel "Isle Royal Wolves"

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Offline Titan_Bow

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2009, 02:08:36 pm »
 I really think there are some more sinister motives to these re-introductions.  Here in CO there has been a battle raging over what to do with the elk in Rocky Mountain National Park.  A bill was passed and a plan put forward, but it was put on hold because a lawsuit was brought forward because the idea of wolf re-introduction was not brought up.  Theres a group in Boulder that used to be called Sinapu, but seems they changed there name to WildEarth Guardians...  they have stated time and time again that they want to introduce wolves and grizzlies in CO with one motive to end sport hunting.  Their belief is that if enough wolves and other predators are there, we dont need hunting as a management tool. 
  I spend alot of time in the high country as well, and I do not have anything against wolves, but I think there is alot more motive to these introductions than just the warm fuzzy of bringing the wolf back....
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Offline hawkbow

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Re: Wolf sighting on Santiam pass in Oregon
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2009, 02:17:21 pm »
we have been fighting that same battle for years... a rancher friend of mine saw a helicopter landing on his ranch.. the feds were releasing wolves on his private ground right in his calving area ::) when they were caught they denied knowing they were in the wrong.. Hawk
IT IS BETTER TO LOSE WITH HONOR. THAN TO WIN THROUGH DECEPTION...


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