Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: TimmyDeNorCal on October 30, 2021, 04:00:57 pm
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I always enjoy seeing the bow & arrow heavily featured in a TV show or a feature-length film...
...until the viewer finally gets to see the bow fire an arrow. Because at that point the bow then just becomes a disgrace.
Just about every show that features Native American archery tackle would leave the unsophisticated viewer believing the Native American bow had a draw weight of about 10# and a maximum cast of about 50 yards. And not only that, but for the arrow to even travel a measly 50 yards the arrow had to be launched at flight-shoot angles (plus one would think that Native Americans knew or cared nothing at all for well-tuned arrows...and we all know that that is far from the truth!).
I think I understand the reasoning for such poor examples of supposedly historical bows - I mean, look at what just happened on that set with one of the Baldwin actors! That guy accidentally shot and killed someone with a gun that was not supposed to have live ammunition!
And so I understand the desire for safety on a film set. And I understand how that would extend to bows and arrows. But could there not be a better compromise between much more accurate bow renditions that performed closer to their real historical counterparts??
The answer, of course, is yes. With all of the ridiculous advancements in special effects the arrow flight could just be rendered in later in editing. That would seem to make the most sense...being that it is a nice trade off between historical accuracy and on-set safety. That would also allow for the bows to be physically accurate specimens...and not just full parallel-limbed wood lamination strips with emergency/survival nocks cut into the “tips.”
Yet film-makers still choose not to do so. I am watching the show “The Son” right now. The show’s plot follows the lead character (played by an older Pierce Brosnan) when he was about 15 and a Comanche prisoner and then 60+ years later as a burgeoning oil man. From what I recall, Comanche bows generally averaged higher draw weights than most Native bows...yet the show depicts their warriors’ bows with small child-bow draw weights and casts.
It is pathetic. And for a well-made show in seemingly every other respect, it greatly reduces the legitimacy of the show in my eyes. But I know that I am an exception. Because no one else around me ever seems to care that Hollywood bows look & shoot like dogs...
...which is why I decided to bring this to you all. Because I know the PA crowd cares as much as I do.
* Also - I am new to PA in the sense that this is only my 2nd post or response...but I scour these threads with a fervor. The knowledge and experience here is truly outstanding (and inspiring). And at some point I will figure out how to post pictures so that I can share a few of my bows!
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Back after Dances with Wolves came out I was taking a vacation in Gatlinburg and visiting the Polly Bergin art gallery. They just happened to have a lot of the clothing and equipment for sale from the movie at the time I was there.
Who ever had handled the period correct clothing and props had gone the extra mine to make everything as authentic as possible.
The bows and arrows could have come out of museum, perfect replicas of plains Indian's sinew backed bows and arrows. The arrows where properly made with real not fake sinew attaching the feathers.
The arrows were priced at $100 each, the bows at $1200 and the more notable dresses at $600 if I remember correctly. Lots of money at the time for a couple just starting out.
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A guy who used to be on here a lot made the initial bows for the Hunger Games movies, he made fake ones to be held at full draw for scenes and the real thing to be shot. I think the producers gravitated away from selfbows to laminated bows after the movie started shooting.
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Back in the 90's I attended a bow making class held by Dave Kissimger. Dave made some bows for Hollywood movies back in the 90's. He said all the bows he made were functional and authentic to the time period. As to whether there were additional bows on the set that were "props" I can't say.
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Back after Dances with Wolves came out I was taking a vacation in Gatlinburg and visiting the Polly Bergin art gallery. They just happened to have a lot of the clothing and equipment for sale from the movie at the time I was there.
Who ever had handled the period correct clothing and props had gone the extra mine to make everything as authentic as possible.
The bows and arrows could have come out of museum, perfect replicas of plains Indian's sinew backed bows and arrows. The arrows where properly made with real not fake sinew attaching the feathers.
The arrows were priced at $100 each, the bows at $1200 and the more notable dresses at $600 if I remember correctly. Lots of money at the time for a couple just starting out.
Some of the DWW bows/arrows were made by Mike Stocklin from Faith SD. His work was superior and historically correct including materials. Some were made by Gary "Doc" Hermann and he used a lot of artificial sinew and wooden dowels for the arrows. I own many of the "victim" arrows that were broken off short to stick into the actors to simulate being shot.
I believe there were a number of other bowyers from various reservations in South Dakota that also contributed to the armory.
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Revenant was a movie made a few years ago . The bows, and arrows were made by Eric Smith, and true to life in every way. He has a web site if any one is interested in looking at his plains bows.
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I think I should added that not all every show or film’s bows and arrows are plain ridiculous. In my many google searches I have read about how some true bowyers were commissioned for the archery tackle for certain shows and movies.
And I take great joy in seeing their work on screen. It is just the poorer versions that really bother me. Especially when it leaves some people thinking that Native archery was/is a joke or ineffective. And after witnessing the arrows fly in “The Son” any and all causal viewers would be left thinking that the Comanche - and maybe most all tribes, for that matter - were poor weaponry craftsman. Especially since I am part Native American myself and also a huge primitive archery aficionado.
I’ve considered buying a copy of Eric Smith’s book. It’s been in my “Saved for Later” section of my Amazon cart for months now.
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Imagine how different TV would be if only the truth was shown...
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Unless special efforts were made to find extras with at least some archery skills the weaker faux bows would be a necessary evil. It does suprise me that they wouldn't at least have a few skilled archers firing off some arrows from more powerful bows and editing those shots in.
I haven't seen anything that suggests the Comanche used more powerful bows than most other tribes. They were mainly noted for their superior volume of fire, keeping 6 or more arrows in the air before the first reached the target.
Some Eastern and far northern tribes used very powerful bows closer to European warbows in performance. The Eskimo used horn bows of 80+ pounds pull.
This discussion does point out the superior depiction of arrows in warfare of many much older films.
Just recently I've tried to remember the title of a film that had a scene where a warrior slashed the bow string of a foe who was drawing a bead on a friend. The bow at full draw recoiled shattering the upper limb. At the time I saw this it made no impression till I read of the dangers of dry firing and of broken strings causing such damage.
Whether the shattering of the limb was intentional or an unexpected result I'll never know.
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Just recently I've tried to remember the title of a film that had a scene where a warrior slashed the bow string of a foe who was drawing a bead on a friend. The bow at full draw recoiled shattering the upper limb. At the time I saw this it made no impression till I read of the dangers of dry firing and of broken strings causing such damage.
Whether the shattering of the limb was intentional or an unexpected result I'll never know.
Keep us posted if you remember the title of the film. I'd like to see that!
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The archery in the 1994 TV movie Warrior Spirit as quite well done albeit rather brief. Pretty authentic looking gear.
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Jim Hamm remarked that the Kiowa natives must have been weight lifters ,because of the heavy pull bows that many of them made, and shot. On the flip side David Carridine interviewed a modern day Souix native that was shooting a replica bow at a moderate distance, and the arrows were barely sticking in the target, but at point blank range on horse back would kill a Buffalo. It was a simple D shaped bow. Their was a diversity of bows made by different tribes, and even with in the tribes. West coast sinew lined bows being among some of the best. I made an eastern woodland replica Sudbury bow from Hickory that turned out much like the museum bow even with the same amount of set. At 45lbs. and my short 25 inch 3 under draw the bow would shoot in the low 130's in fps with a 470 gr. wood arrow ,and flint head. Their was bountiful game back then, and they were good stalkers.
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Jim Hamm remarked that the Kiowa natives must have been weight lifters ,because of the heavy pull bows that many of them made, and shot. On the flip side David Carridine interviewed a modern day Souix native that was shooting a replica bow at a moderate distance, and the arrows were barely sticking in the target, but at point blank range on horse back would kill a Buffalo. It was a simple D shaped bow. Their was a diversity of bows made by different tribes, and even with in the tribes. West coast sinew lined bows being among some of the best. I made an eastern woodland replica Sudbury bow from Hickory that turned out much like the museum bow even with the same amount of set. At 45lbs. and my short 25 inch 3 under draw the bow would shoot in the low 130's in fps with a 470 gr. wood arrow ,and flint head. Their was bountiful game back then, and they were good stalkers.
Was that the TV show where they would spotlight two disparate cultures and their weapons in a "head to head" competition shooting into a ballistic gel dummy or stabbing it with knives/swords/whatever? "Deadliest Warrior"?
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Actual replicas usually do much better. Pope's Sudbury replica reached 173 yards with a bamboo flight arrow.
Laubin documented excellent results with tiny Plains replicas.
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No Jzw this program was on the history channel.
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Maybe at 28 inches of draw the Sudbury would do much better. 3 more inches of draw would make a big difference. Tiny plains replicas. what draw length and poundage?
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Also what grain arrows were they shooting?
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Maybe at 28 inches of draw the Sudbury would do much better. 3 more inches of draw would make a big difference. Tiny plains replicas. what draw length and poundage?
Pope's flight arrow was a 310 grain arrow. So light but not overly so in relation to typical flight arrows.
Laubin often made bows of around 40-48 inches give or take and in the 40-60 pound range but shot typical Plains style arrows around 200 yards. His arrows were 23 inches.
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Just recently I've tried to remember the title of a film that had a scene where a warrior slashed the bow string of a foe who was drawing a bead on a friend. The bow at full draw recoiled shattering the upper limb. At the time I saw this it made no impression till I read of the dangers of dry firing and of broken strings causing such damage.
Whether the shattering of the limb was intentional or an unexpected result I'll never know.
Keep us posted if you remember the title of the film. I'd like to see that!
I think the film may have been one of the Icelandic films based on the Sagas of the Icelanders.
I have a copy of that book and IIRC in one battle a Viking warrior is betrayed and his bow string slashed forcing him to take on his enemies with only his sword.
The bow is often the weapon of choice in these sagas. In one a warrior fighting off a mob of enemies that attack his home breaks his string and demands that his wife cut a length of her hair to make a bowstring, she refuses and he is killed.
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"In one a warrior fighting off a mob of enemies that attack his home breaks his string and demands that his wife cut a length of her hair to make a bowstring, she refuses and he is killed."
One of the first Scandinavian feminists. I hear she went bald, died alone, miserable and was eaten by her flock of cats.
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40 to 60 lb bows, and typical plains arrows. That is a wide spread of numbers. My 24 inch plains arrows with a bird point weight up to 500 grs. Some are lighter depending on the wood used, but not by all that much. Do you have any real numbers? Example.... A 60 lb bow shooting a 300 gr arrow ,or 40 lb bow shooting a 400 gr arrow, and was he shooting pinch finger, or 3 under, or split finger, and at what draw length was he shooting to get 200 yds. arrow flight. Just curious.
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im sure there is a wide range of quality,, :)
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40 to 60 lb bows, and typical plains arrows. That is a wide spread of numbers. My 24 inch plains arrows with a bird point weight up to 500 grs. Some are lighter depending on the wood used, but not by all that much. Do you have any real numbers? Example.... A 60 lb bow shooting a 300 gr arrow ,or 40 lb bow shooting a 400 gr arrow, and was he shooting pinch finger, or 3 under, or split finger, and at what draw length was he shooting to get 200 yds. arrow flight. Just curious.
The spread is even larger actually but two bows he mentioned specifically were a 40 inch sinew backed Ash that pulled 35 at 20 and shot 179 with a 23 inch arrow and a 48 inch sinew backed Hickory Sioux style that pulled 55 at 23 and shot 220. The arrow was just a shortened 5/16 shaft.
I think it's pretty clear that little bows were not just capable of short range or lobbing.
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A 5/16 cedar shaft 26 inches long is 210 grs by my powder measure scale. That is the shaft by it's self with a string nock cut out, and tapered tip. More the weight of what flight shooters shoot out of short horn, and wooden self bows etc. with barrel tapered, or not arrows. Not convinced those numbers you posted would be typical of the average plains horse bows, and arrows used for Buffalo hunting by our natives, or for warfare with a pinched finger release used by not all ,but by many plains natives.
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I have chronographed quite a few short bows,,they can shoot hard, I dont have my book to post numbers,,after reading Laubin about the Sioux bows I made some just to see, they were impressive,, Im talking sinew backed,,
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Game numbers may have been higher in some parts of the North American continent, but not everywhere was necessarily easier.
A book on Kit Carson stated that he needed to arbitrate an agreement between the natives around the Purgatorie River, SE Colorado and a ranch. Seems that a few rifleman killing deer to feed the new ranch operation disrupted the hunting enough to cause a stir.
And I read that Indians in the Idaho Rockies would get close to younger deer, does and a small ones, hanging out, not be threating, so when the bigger deer came in, they stood a better chance of a harvest. Maybe that was in Primitive Archer....
The Yavapi Band that hunted the Eagletail Mtns, sheep, and lived near the Colorado River in SW Arizona would get skins, other materials from other bands and create functional art, as their own area lacked some resources.
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On Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, the characters hold the supposed war poundage bows back at anchor long, like a minute long...joke.
Interesting thread.
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A 5/16 cedar shaft 26 inches long is 210 grs by my powder measure scale. That is the shaft by it's self with a string nock cut out, and tapered tip. More the weight of what flight shooters shoot out of short horn, and wooden self bows etc. with barrel tapered, or not arrows. Not convinced those numbers you posted would be typical of the average plains horse bows, and arrows used for Buffalo hunting by our natives, or for warfare with a pinched finger release used by not all ,but by many plains natives.
Why not? The tertiary or secondary release is a great release for a short bow. It flatters if anything.
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Were is your book? I would like to see your numbers.
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You can source the book easily. It may even be online.
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Ya the tertiary does ,but most didn't use it. That is my point. Was the bow tested shot with a raw hide string, or sinew string, or gut string, or some other type of string? Many did not shoot sinew backed bows either. Maybe the majority.
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Not that book . Brad's book. Brad what do you consider a hard shooting plains bow?
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let me check my chrono notes and get back to you,,
I have a like 46 sinew one that will shoot a 460 grain arrow 180 fps,, its 55# about, so not 10 gpp,, but that was one of my best ones,, 23 inch draw,,
give or take, im going by memory now, im old and not as exact as I used to be,, ;D
I posted the results, my ugly bow, I think was thread,,
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We watched "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves" the other day. It's a great story, but many eye-rolling archery moments. My wife and daughter did not much appreciate my comments about same, so I stopped. ha ha Such silliness. But really what did we expect from a Robin Hood with an American accent?
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We watched "Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves" the other day. It's a great story, but many eye-rolling archery moments. My wife and daughter did not much appreciate my comments about same, so I stopped. ha ha Such silliness. But really what did we expect from a Robin Hood with an American accent?
I think I prefer "Robin Hood :Men in Tights".
I grew up with Richard Greene as Robin Hood, A vastly under rated actor, a great TV series. Several episodes delved into the making of and proper handling of the long bow. There is one that explains archer paradox and arrow spine very neatly.
The action scenes with bows were better thought through than almost any movie version.
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John Scifres made the original Hunger Games bow.
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"... Because no one else around me ever seems to care that Hollywood bows look & shoot like dogs..."
Some movies aren't great in this regard.
Some are.
Most moviegoers likely don't give a dang. They are there for the hype, actors, plot, and cinemaphotography.
Maybe photography techniques can be altered to make bow scenes more "WOW". Lacking implementation of significant recommends in that area, . . . . . . (-P