Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on January 02, 2021, 06:31:08 pm
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OK, here's where I am:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50793471617_5cd48d67ff_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2korPuD)tiller1 (https://flic.kr/p/2korPuD) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
Looks to me like both inner limbs are stiff, especially the left, and the right-side mid limb needs to work more. Am I on the right track?
Also, I am planning on heat-treating this bow. At what stage should I do that?
Any other pointers? This is the stave Timbo sent me, and I'd really like to get a shooter out of it.
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1st the left limb seems to be bending more then right limb I would fix that first.
2nd the tiller looks good but the issue is you really need to bend it more to be able to start seeing it clearly. The limbs aren’t traveling much but from what they are I don’t really see much issue except for the weaker limb.
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The limb on the left is bending more than the right but otherwise there’s not much bend to tell what’s needed. Have you floor tillered it? It looks quite thin. What is it pulling now?
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So, time to brace it and start working with the gizmo? It is thin, but the limbs are up to 2" wide. I haven't measured draw weight yet.
When should I heat treat the belly?
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Likely not bending enough for the gizmo yet but I don’t use one. Just because they’re 2” wide doesn’t mean they’ll be any thinner than a similar length bow of any given draw weight. It doesn’t look like it’s bending enough to brace but it could be 10# draw for the picture. Need more info.
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I think the outers on the left limb are starting to bend. Right just barely. I would keep moving in. As you get the mid and inner working the outer will probably get stiff again so you might have to revisit them.
Do you know what weight you are drawing it to?
Bjrogg
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OK, took a bit more off the right and pulled it further. It's pulling 45# in this picture. It's on a long string; I haven't braced it yet. I'm hoping for 50# @ 27", but since this is my first one I'll be happy if I just get a good, shootable bow with a good tiller. :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50793804491_dacfb96b75_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kotwrR)tiller2 (https://flic.kr/p/2kotwrR) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
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I think the outers on the left limb are starting to bend. Right just barely.
Bjrogg
Early on, I actually had a pretty bad hinge in the outer-mid left limb I had to really work out. I think that's why the left is bending more.
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Looks like it’s ready to brace!
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After seeing that first picture I was going to say you have a hinge forming on the left mid/outer limb.
Yes go for a low brace height now, like 2 inches off the belly.
Once you have done this post a photo.
A longstring should still touch the belly of the bow once in the nocks, you should have to bend the bow a little to get it on/off. Too long a string will make the true bend of the outer (once braced) look stiff. That is because the braced bow is being pulled inwards as well as down when actually bracd and drawn.
Also what wood is this? 2" wide for a 40# bow is likely too wide. When the stave is too wide the trhickness will be an issue. Mainly because as a bow gets thinner and thinner the shavings you take off become a greater percentage of totally limb thickness....so it is very easy to make a hinge. As long as this is decent wood I would reduce down to 1 3/4", brace it pull to draw weight. Monitor set, you could even go narrower but this depends on the wood type/denstiy.
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After seeing that first picture I was going to say you have a hinge forming on the left mid/outer limb.
Yes go for a low brace height now, like 2 inches off the belly.
Once you have done this post a photo.
A longstring should still touch the belly of the bow once in the nocks, you should have to bend the bow a little to get it on/off. Too long a string will make the true bend of the outer (once braced) look stiff. That is because the braced bow is being pulled inwards as well as down when actually bracd and drawn.
Also what wood is this? 2" wide for a 40# bow is likely too wide. When the stave is too wide the trhickness will be an issue. Mainly because as a bow gets thinner and thinner the shavings you take off become a greater percentage of totally limb thickness....so it is very easy to make a hinge. As long as this is decent wood I would reduce down to 1 3/4", brace it pull to draw weight. Monitor set, you could even go narrower but this depends on the wood type/denstiy.
That hinge is actually much better than it was. It formed right at the start, and I've been working either side of it.
It's hickory. There are a couple of pin knots near the edges, so I'm a little reluctant to narrow it much, but I'll see what I can do. I'll try to get it strung today or tomorrow and post a picture.
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Some good advice here WB. I’m just looking on my phone and it’s a little hard to see, but I think I’d stay away from the right fade now. I might be wrong but on my phone it looks like it’s really moving directly out of the fade.
Bjrogg
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With the bow being pulled that far with a long string I'd say it's time for low brace.
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looking good,, I see it shooting now,, :)
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Alright. Strung it up to low brace. Gizmo was coloring the inner-mids, so I guess I'll narrow there a little bit.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50799924292_65fe83e030_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kp1TDE)tiller3 (https://flic.kr/p/2kp1TDE) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
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I don’t know if anyone else sees it but on my phone it’s looking like a hinge starting just a couple inches out of the right fade. I’d put a x there and not remove any wood from that spot till everything else catches back up.
Once again it could just be pictures on my phone. Not my favorite way to watch a bend, but that’s what my eye is seeing. Don’t remember it being in the unbraced profile
Bjrogg
PS I agree with Brad. I can see a shooter in the very near future.
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I don’t know if anyone else sees it but on my phone it’s looking like a hinge starting just a couple inches out of the right fade. I’d put a x there and not remove any wood from that spot till everything else catches back up.
either that or a stiff spot over the loop of white extension cord.
Thomas, could you put some kind of backdrop on the workbench so that the background does not look so busy, and shoot the pic from straight on in the next pic? (evaluating from a single pic is harder than seeing it from many angles and watching it bend)thx
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Yeah, I know it's pretty hard to see with all the junk in the background. I'll see what I can do.
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I can see thicker and thinner places in your limbs, a lot thinner in some.
You may already know this but if you lay out your bow with side profile lines you will have a more even taper stem to stern.
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I can see thicker and thinner places in your limbs, a lot thinner in some.
You may already know this but if you lay out your bow with side profile lines you will have a more even taper stem to stern.
Yes, I started out that way...somehow it got all uneven. There are also spots that are uneven left-to-right. I'm working on evening those up.
I really want to get this one shooting, but I am already thinking that I'm going to do my next one a lot different. Surprise, surprise. ;D
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Can we see some close ups of the limbs? The belly surface and sides, not what the bend is like.
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Yes, I started out that way...somehow it got all uneven.
are you familiar with the faceting method advocated by Dean Torges?
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Yes, I started out that way...somehow it got all uneven.
are you familiar with the faceting method advocated by Dean Torges?
Is this something you can describe or are willing to share a link about. May know what you mean, but if it’s something I haven’t seen, I want to learn.
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Yes, I started out that way...somehow it got all uneven.
are you familiar with the faceting method advocated by Dean Torges?
Is this something you can describe or are willing to share a link about. May know what you mean, but if it’s something I haven’t seen, I want to learn.
It just means reducing the belly with multiple narrow flat surfaces instead of going for a broad flat surface or a curved surface all at once.
You still need to be able to execute accurate reduction, it's not going to be a miracle.
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=50431.0 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=50431.0)
some discussion and a drawing
some pics here that go with the book
http://www.bowyersedge.com/faceting.htmlclick on "select", and paste into your browser
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Never heard of the faceting method. I'll look into it. I've just been making the belly flat. Here are some pictures.
Right limb, straight on:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50809116391_742b47f02b_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpQ198)right limb straight on (https://flic.kr/p/2kpQ198) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
Right belly:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50808360023_a06029105f_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpL8ii)right belly (https://flic.kr/p/2kpL8ii) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
Right fade:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50809100401_d0d88d2da1_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpPVor)right fade (https://flic.kr/p/2kpPVor) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
Left Fade:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50809216292_298f544f1d_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpQvQy)left fade (https://flic.kr/p/2kpQvQy) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
Left Belly:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50808359908_a2f50291f1_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpL8gj)left belly (https://flic.kr/p/2kpL8gj) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
Left Limb straight on:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50808375398_5058365467_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpLcSo)left limb straight on (https://flic.kr/p/2kpLcSo) by Whistling Badger (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187773441@N04/), on Flickr
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Thomas, is it a pyramid front profile? Establish your thickness line again. something we can visually reference if you post another pic of the bend so far.
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If you draw your side profile lines on all four sides of your limbs, pay attention and never rasp through them you will keep a very consistent limb profile and seldom have a limb dogleg to one side or the other when you string the bow.
I make slightly rounded belly bows and drop my lines 1/16" every 6" until I get to 1/4" then carry this height to the tip of the limb. My side profile line may be 1/4' but my limbs go from almost flat belly to an oval belly starting about 12" from the tip so my tip limb depth is close to 1/2" thick. I make my limb tips less than 1/2" wide with 3/8" being common.
For a flat belly bow you may want to make your first side line height at 5/8" or a little taller.
If you get your bow shaped and still have too much poundage, drop your lines another 1/16".
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Thomas, is it a pyramid front profile? Establish your thickness line again. something we can visually reference if you post another pic of the bend so far.
It's a sudburry-style front profile. So, at this point, should I even up the thickness regardless of bend and then go from there, or should I just keep tillering and hope for the best?
Also: If I'm going for an even, elliptical tiller, aren't the wide places in the limb going to be thinner than than the thinner parts out toward the tips?
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I wish Jim Davis would chime in, he has made more pyramid bows than anyone around and could answer ALL your questions.
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A Sudbury is leaf more willow leaf shaped, not pyramid.
Mostly try to keep the belly flat and the facets removed in continuous lines from end to end. Don't have those random chipped out sections where corners are removed in scoops almost down to the back.
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Something that helped me was marking the limbs every 2 inches the entire length, I'd then use a digital caliper to check the thickness on each side and wright it on the belly of the bow, then i'd exercise the limbs and check with a gizmo. Using that information made it simple for me to make a better decision on where to remove material. Its not a fool proof method but helped me understand things much better. It takes some time to do this but helped me make a decent finished bow. Hope I explained that correct. The more you practice the better you get:)
Mike
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Finish that sucker up! If you mess it up, I can always send you another stave. I would try to get the thickness taper as good as possible. If it is a question of getting it ALMOST perfect and still hitting your weight, you might choose to proceed. On the other hand, if you get perfect taper/tiller and end up with a 40# bow that shoots great, that's fine (and you could think about heat treating and/or piking to raise weight at that point).
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Thanks for all the input, guys. My laptop went wonky over the weekend; I could read all your stuff but it wouldn't let me reply.
I've got the width pretty well evened up, and both limbs bending equally with no remaining hinges. I'm going to trim down the tips until they just barely start to work--they're really clunky right now--then start working with it on the tree again. At some point I'll round off the sharp edges (how much?), and if I start noticing set, I'll heat treat. Amazon sent me a heat gun over the weekend, so I'm ready to go there.
Still trying to figure out how to sharpen a card scraper. Once I get the hang of that, with Timbo's promise of more staves, nothing will stop me! :BB
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Still trying to figure out how to sharpen a card scraper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L4Ij-xMuNU
Mark
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Sounds like a good plan! For rounding edges, people often say to make it about the size of a garden pea. The exact amount of rounding doesn't matter as long as you do enough, but not too much! (Something like 3/32" from the edge is probably about right...maybe start with less and see how it looks.) You can transition to a rounder cross section as you get to the tips if you want.
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The exact amount doesn't matter as long as you do enough, but not too much!
Those are some words to live by, right there.
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At some point I'll round off the sharp edges
on the back especially, the sooner the better. I sand the rounded edges smooth also.
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I rounded off the back and smoothed the edges. The curve is looking pretty good on the long string. I think I might have taken off too much and made it too light, but maybe it'll still make a good kid's bow. :) I ordered a string for it which should be in any day now, so I'll put it on the scale and find out for sure.
T