Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: WhistlingBadger on March 25, 2020, 06:44:54 pm
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I sure wish a couple of you guys had been with me at the lumber store today. I sorted through the stacks of oak, hickory, and maple. This is the one I came home with. It's 1" by 5" by 10'. It looked a lot straighter at the store than it does at home. What do you think? Can I get a bow or three out of this?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HTRbj5qr66PCS9WP9
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Three broken bows.
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yeah, I was afraid of that. OK, tell me what's wrong and what I should look for next time.
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and what I should look for next time
a stave if you are concerned about unexpected failures, but if that is not possible, then I would look at the maple or hickory for a board that has ring lines straight
along the edge. were there thicker boards than 3/4"?
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Don’t be afraid to look through the 4ft long 1.5” wide by 1/2” thick boards. Building short bows are fun and good tillering practice too.
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and what I should look for next time
a stave if you are concerned about unexpected failures, but if that is not possible, then I would look at the maple or hickory for a board that has ring lines straight
along the edge. were there thicker boards than 3/4"?
No staves around here unless I cut my own, and precious few options for that. I might could find an elm stave, maybe green ash. Maples and bur oaks exist around here but they're very rare and mostly grow in rich people's yards. Such people tend to have no sense of generosity when it comes to their trees.
All their hardwood boards were 3/4. They had some hickory, but just really big pieces that were really expensive, and they all had knots in them.
"Ring lines straight along the edge." This piece actually has straight grain along the smooth edge. Is the problem all those run-outs along the face? I didn't see any pieces with no run-outs.
This guy says that those run-outs are the problem, but he also says plain-sawn lumber is more forgiving of faults, and his picture of plain-sawn lumber has tons of run-outs. https://primitivebows.wordpress.com/articles/selecting-wood-for-bows/ (https://primitivebows.wordpress.com/articles/selecting-wood-for-bows/)
Thus my confusion. Can someone set me straight? What does a good board look like?
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Don’t be afraid to look through the 4ft long 1.5” wide by 1/2” thick boards. Building short bows are fun and good tillering practice too.
They did have a fairly straight 4' piece of hickory. I thought about grabbing it to make a bow for my daughter. All their hardwood is 9-10" wide, but I don't suppose that's a problem.
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and what I should look for next time
a stave if you are concerned about unexpected failures, but if that is not possible, then I would look at the maple or hickory for a board that has ring lines straight
along the edge. were there thicker boards than 3/4"?
No staves around here unless I cut my own, and precious few options for that. I might could find an elm stave, maybe green ash. Maples and bur oaks exist around here but they're very rare and mostly grow in rich people's yards. Such people tend to have no sense of generosity when it comes to their trees.
All their hardwood boards were 3/4. They had some hickory, but just really big pieces that were really expensive, and they all had knots in them.
"Ring lines straight along the edge." This piece actually has straight grain along the smooth edge. Is the problem all those run-outs along the face? I didn't see any pieces with no run-outs.
This guy says that those run-outs are the problem, but he also says plain-sawn lumber is more forgiving of faults, and his picture of plain-sawn lumber has tons of run-outs. https://primitivebows.wordpress.com/articles/selecting-wood-for-bows/ (https://primitivebows.wordpress.com/articles/selecting-wood-for-bows/)
Thus my confusion. Can someone set me straight? What does a good board look like?
The picture is to illustrate the sawn board, not that it's a good board for a bow.
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"Ring lines straight along the edge." This piece actually has straight grain along the smooth edge. Is the problem all those run-outs along the face?
it looks a little wavy from the half I can make out, the far end is out of focus. I am going to guess you went to the the big orange box supermarket "lumberyard"? or something like it? there is a good chance their oak is substandard in ways that are not obvious also.
looking at the center of a flatsawn board where the rings are truly flat can be deceptive in that a series of islands can be evident as a single ring wanders in and out of the face cut. worse is a series of flame points pointing in the same direction, then maybe reversing until another island is found. this indicates a number of rings being violated.
the two pics you referenced could be two portions of a flat sawn face. one like the center of the log where the rings are truly flat and the other nearer the edge of the board where the the rings are biased. rings that are biased need to look straighter than similarly biased rings on a lesser board.
plainsawn wood is more forgiving of defects.
i am not sure in what context he is making that statement
No staves around here unless I cut my own, and precious few options for that.
what kind of saplings grow along the river bottom?
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it looks a little wavy from the half I can make out, the far end is out of focus. I am going to guess you went to the the big orange box supermarket "lumberyard"? or something like it? there is a good chance their oak is substandard in ways that are not obvious also.
We don't have big box stores here; I got this from Bloedorn Lumber, a semi-local chain. Not sure if that matters.
looking at the center of a flatsawn board where the rings are truly flat can be deceptive in that a series of islands can be evident as a single ring wanders in and out of the face cut. worse is a series of flame points pointing in the same direction, then maybe reversing until another island is found. this indicates a number of rings being violated.
I thought that violated rings weren't a problem with a board bow. That in itself has always confused me: Why is that such a no-no on a stave, but boards don't need to follow a ring? For that matter, hickory backing doesn't need to follow a ring. Why?
what kind of saplings grow along the river bottom?
Mostly cottonwood and aspen. Chokecherry is pretty common in the foothills, as is rocky mountain juniper. Both are going to be full of knots, so would probably need to be sinew backed. I know of a few rowan/mountain ash, but they're quite rare, and odds of finding a good stave are pretty low. That's about it for native bow woods. I would love to do a chokecherry/sinew bow, but I was hoping for something a bit easier and more immediate to get me started.
Thanks for trying to answer my myriad questions, guys. I'm trying to figure out the why, not just the what. It's so much simpler when the guys in youtube videos do this! ha ha
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Boards can have violated rings because the linear fibers are still intact. Think of a well decrowned stave. Not one with a localized chunk gouged out. Also the flatter cross section allows more fibers to share the load. Staves with violations tend to be crowned to a degree and the violations often end up being on the peak of the crown where stresses are higher.
Other sawn orientations for backing or whole bows are still selected based on the linear fiber principle.
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Look for something like this...
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Look for something like this...
OK, that actually really helps. You knew that high school art class would come in handy someday, right? ;D So I need a board with no knots, but also no run-outs, right? I'll probably have to scour all the local stores for a smaller piece that's quarter-sawn. Bloody difficult with all the paranoia right now, but I'll see what I can do.
Thanks, guys. This is really helping. Now I just need to figure out what to do with this expensive piece of firewood I seem to have acquired...
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You can use it for risers. Make a gizmo. I've been at this for six years and made more than 60 bows but I've never made a Board bow because I've never found a board that looks suitable. I look every so often just to check. Our local hardwood supplier can get what they call "bow quality" boards but you pay for whatever comes so you're depending on the kid they send out back to find one. I think this is one of the bad parts of recommending board bows for beginners. Yes there are lots of you tube's out there where people make great board bows but how many did they make before they got one that worked. Editing is a wonderful tool.
I just had to get that off my chest :D
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Look for a board with straight lines on all 4 side.
I’ve chased a ring on store bought lumber as well
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Buy yourself a hickory backing strip and glue it to the back with TB3 wood glue or unibond 800. The wood backing will allow you to get a good bow out of your otherwise not good board. The grain on your board isn’t that bad and will work just fine if it is backed with a good quality wood backing strip. For what it’s worth, almost every bow I have made started out as a board.
Cheers,
Taylor.
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DC, I think you're probably right about youtube bows. :)
Wizard, the way I understand chasing rings, none of the lumber here is thick enough to do that.
Taylor, I'll look into hickory backing. Hawkdancer offered to send me some bamboo, but with the very limited tools I have (no band saw, no belt sander) I don't think I would achieve the required smoothness in a reasonable amount of time. Would that be true for hickory backing as well, or is a little less exacting to work with?
Again, THANKS everybody. It is hard to imagine how long it would take me to figure out all this by myself, even with books and youtube vids.
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Also,look out for rift sawn lumber on the edges of other wise useless bow lumber....top view of a board...the V's show the grain violations...
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The hickory strip should come pretty much ready to glue up other than maybe a little sanding. Check to ensure the backing is a perfect fit to the board before gluing them together. . Once the board is backed you can treat it like a perfectly good bow blank 👍🏻
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Also,look out for rift sawn lumber on the edges of other wise useless bow lumber....top view of a board...the V's show the grain violations...
So the middle would be useless, but I could get a good bow out of each edge? There was a piece of hickory that looked like that, but it was $35 and only about 2" on either side looked usable.
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You can flatten bamboo with a rasp and a long piece of coarse sandpaper stuck to a flat board.
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Look for straight lines along the edge and the board's face will reflect that. Check my site for a nearly perfect board. Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com/boards.html
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Its hard to tell from the pictures, but the board with the grain that runs all the way down the edge looks like it could make a bow.
Plainsawn lumber always looks a bit wrong for a stave, as run outs appear to be worse than they actually are.
A better bet for plainsawn boards is to measure the run of the grain(on the edge of the board, that are going to be the sides of the bow). For a 1" thick board I would look for run out from back to belly of at least 20", preferably more if you can get it. Its the standard that old time bowyers used for suitable material.
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Also,look out for rift sawn lumber on the edges of other wise useless bow lumber....top view of a board...the V's show the grain violations...
Bush boy, if the flame tips point in the same direction as shown in your sketch, wouldn't the rings on the boards edge run out? and the edges of the board be just as usless?
if the ring lines as viewed from the edge look good, then the flame tips might alternate or the best view would be islands. the bigger the better.
its the angle of the runout that important, so the number of runouts have to also consider the ring count. if the ring count is very fine you could tolerate more runouts than if the ringcount was coarse.
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You maybe correct...the drawing is exaggerated..I have had luck using side rift sawn or not would not have made a suggestion.certain woods like hard maple and hickory can be quite tough if tillered deliberately.i haven't made self board bows in quite a while ,but made many years ago..
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So, I just took a sharpie and ran couple grain lines along the edge. There is one ring that starts on the left edge. It wavers around a bit, but never leaves the board over its entire 10' length. At the far end, it is about 1/3 in from the right. So, the edge grain is actually quite straight across the length. Also, the run-outs basically amount to a really big island about 1/3 of the way in. That's good, right?
Just ordered a hickory strip. I think there is hope.
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The pic at the very bottom left, marked with a sharpie looks good. Now look at the wide face, see if the grain runs parallel with the edge of the board. If it doesn't, then you should be able to realign where you want the stave to run down the board. If you have a straight 2" x1" or whatever width you want, lie it down and trace around it to see how it will look before you cut it out. If the stave meets these requirements it should be good for an unbacked bow, and won't need the hickory.
If the tree didn't grow straight in that plane then the board won't be suitable for a full length bow but might be for a pair of side by side billets.
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The pic at the very bottom left, marked with a sharpie looks good. Now look at the wide face, see if the grain runs parallel with the edge of the board. If it doesn't, then you should be able to realign where you want the stave to run down the board. If you have a straight 2" x1" or whatever width you want, lie it down and trace around it to see how it will look before you cut it out. If the stave meets these requirements it should be good for an unbacked bow, and won't need the hickory.
If the tree didn't grow straight in that plane then the board won't be suitable for a full length bow but might be for a pair of side by side billets.
OK, that helps, too. I think I'll go ahead and use the hickory either way, since it's my first bow and I'm still a bit nervous about it exploding. But the grain does run at a slight diagonal across the face. Sounds like I can cut the backing to length, align it with the grain, trace it, and start cutting.
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There are 3 types of board cuts. As viewed from the end or butt plain sawn looks like this ==, quarter sawn looks like this || and rift sawn looks like this //.
Those points are in someone's pic above /\ are fro plane sawn are ok. I think it just means the trees top is decreasing in diameter.
I like rift sawn and don't favor quarter sawn.
Look for straight grained stock as the ideal. Tip to tip. I look at the edge grain but for plane and rift the edge grain will reflect the face too.
Plane sawn and quarter sawn will allow a couple of runouts per limb where the grain goes belly to back at a gradual angle.
Quarter sawn will tolerate no runouts. Look at the edge grain. It must be straight tip to tip.
I know what it is like to want to build a bow believe me. But if you don't find a good board then leave. Don't compromise. Don't compromise.
Also TBB #2 has info. TBB #4 also. I got started with TBB 2 when it first came out. I like read oak because it is s plentiful.
Check my site too. Lots of board info.
One ore thing. No knots allowed no matter how small.
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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Thanks, George. I checked out your board bow page. I think I can get a backed bow out of this board, but I will be a lot more selective next time and try for a self-bow. T