Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Aksel on March 24, 2018, 06:07:20 pm
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Hi all, here is the first bow I have made in a while and first one ever on this forum. Been making bows since 2005 and have experimented with different styles but I always come back to the simple sapling bows inspired by the north European stone age finds such as Holmegård, tybrind Vig, Ring Kloster etc etc. This is Wych Elm, Ulmus Glabra. 67 inches ntn, 45@28 from a less than 2 inch sapling so it has a very high crown but Wych elm can take it without taking much set or break or chrysal. Sealed with Pine resin varnish and beeswax. Working on a few bows of similar style so might post a few more later
Cheers!
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That's a nice bow, excellent work.
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Very cool character bow, Aksel. I love sapling bows. They are probably closer the ancient bows than what most folks make these days. :OK
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DUDE! Gorgeous. That type is one of my favorite bows to make. I use a lot of elm and ash saplings, too, even very small like that and I love doing it. Yours has that impressive crook in the limb, too! Looks good.
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Very nice bow. That definitely captures the essence of the early bows. Great to see the old european styles. Are you using tied on nocks for the string? Thank you for posting and I look forward to seeing more of your work.
Kyle
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I love it. Really nice looking bow.
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Thanks all! Yes nocks are just a piece of leather folded and tied on, keeps tip-weight down, it's practical and possible to change draw-weight and tiller by changing their position if needed. Was re-working a couple of old bows outside in -10 C (14 F) and was shocked when I checked draw weight and they had gained something like 10 lbs! So if hunting in a cold climate, lowering draw weight could be another advantage of tie on nocks.
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Aksel, do you think that is just caused by the cold, or the dry air the cold brings. My bows pick up weight in winter, but I don't think 10 lbs!
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That is awesome. Never could imagine that bows like that can come from a 2" sapling.
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Cool... well damn freezing from the look of it. ;D
Clean and simple :)
Nice pics too
Del
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Springbuck, I suspect it is the cold because the bows gained weight so suddenly when the temperature dropped but i might be wrong... maybe both?
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Cool bow from a challenging piece of wood. Great tiller and profile.
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Good example of a primitive bow.Keeping it simple.Nice work.
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That is absolutely stunning in it's clean simplicity. When working with character like that, do you have to "hope" the string goes through the center of the handle, or can you "tweak" it to do that?
I'm new to this and working on my first bow from an elm sapling (3"). Roughed out, it has a slight "steady" curve from tip to tip (side to side). I'm trying to figure if steam or heat would work better.
Anyway, that bow is beautiful - great job.
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Mark, get your bow to first brace then decide where the adjustments need to or can be made. In some cases you can't get to first brace, then you can make an adjustment but not until you are at brace will you really be able to tell how the string tracks.
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Asked, real nice bow, has a lot of character!
Hawkdancer
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Hi Mark, usually if the stave is on the long side I try and lay it out so the string will run down the centre, if there is a curve in the stave I make sure the nock won't be in the middle of that curve. see image for example of another similar bow. Or I shape the tips of the bow to reach more for one side. Or carve out the handle more on one side to make the string more centered. If the string isn't perfectly in the centre I am usually ok with it - as long as the string lies over the handle. But if the stave is bent like a banana I steam bend it, handle and, or the tips. But like Pat B says, sometimes its hard to tell until the bow is stringed. Good luck!
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I don’t want to hijack this thread. I’ll try to take some pics and start a thread to get some advice. Thanks for the tips though. Again - nice bow.
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Mark, I know I ain't him, but as I mentioned I make a lot of similar bows: flatbows from white wood saplings.
One important difference to know is how the tree grew vs how the stave dried. For a 6 year old elm sapling, every year has been different, and there is alwaya a lot of reaction wood from wind, new growth shifting its branch load, changing shade and sun, etc. So, esp if you dry them quickly, they do tend to warp into high reflex and often lean way to one side, too. This is the result of it trying to grow straight under pressure, RESISTING various pressures. When I cut a sapling, I often leave it whole and unpeeled until I really want it, then clamp or it down to dry once I rough it out. Gives me a better starting point, but you can either steam or dry heat them straighter, later. Just more work.
The crook in his bow came with the tree. It didn't dry that way, it grew that way, and while Aksel COULD have straightened it more with heat, it's harder to do because the tree IS that way (plus he wanted to leave it). So it looks cool.
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Nice looking bow
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Outstanding work on that crooked sapling!
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I like the table top flat belly on that sapling...You got all that stave would offer...Nice work, you let the wood talk...
Don
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Lovely sapling bow with nice character! Have to try those nocks myself sometime :laugh:
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Very nice! Lots of character, great job!
Mike
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Very interesting bow! I would love to try a European bow design like this. I wonder what wood would be appropriate and found around the K.C. area ?
Again, very impressed,
Greg
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Greg,
I'm not in that area any more, but you got, hickory, ash, oaks, Osage, sassafras, black locust, a variety of nut and fruit trees, and probably some exotics that I have forgotten about.
Hawkdancer
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Thanks everyone for all your nice comments ! I will continue and post sapling bows in this thread as they come along. Working on a few pieces of sapling elm, one is 67 inches long in a slight deflex/reflex profile and I will post my progress here on that stave. Here is this afternoons work in pictures. Any comments questions or suggestions are welcome!
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tools
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working belly of the bow and inner bark on the back
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Shaping the handle with my carpenters axe. It is light, has a very thin blade, straight edge and straight handle and is superior for working dry wood.
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Aksel,
That is a nice stave. You do all your work it's just the hatchet, knife, spokeshave, and scraper? :BB!
Also, my apologies for the misspelling of your name in my other post, spell check messed it up!
Hawkdancer
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Hi, yes thats the tools I'm using, plus saw to cut the tree down and sandpaper. No worries for mis-spelling my name :D
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Great looking bow, and great looking axe. Would like a Granfors Bruk myself but price tag just too rich for me.
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How's the performance on these sapling bows compared to a stave of similar design? I'm wondering if the crowned back helps with reduced weight
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really interesting question I would like to know the answer to as well. I have no way of telling the speed on these bows, but they shot good and with little handshock in my opinion.
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No worries. Just wondering if you shot them side by side if you could tell the difference. It looks to be so light.
How long do you season the saplings before working? If you can't tell, I want to try one out. It's just like my childhood vision of a wooden bow. Find a tree about the size of a bow, cut it down, and make a bow. Awesome.
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I have a fairly large store of material so never need to speed dry wood anymore. These are dried for a few years.
Looking forward to see your sapling bow :D
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Very neat work, Aksel. It's nice to see the start to finish on your sapling bow. Great work with just the hand tools.
Kyle
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Hawkdancer,
Yes but the only woods I can find that were used in Europe to make these stone age bows is yew and wych elm . I'll keep looking to find more on this. I like to keep the bow wood as accurate as possible when looking to make a close replica.
Thanks,
Greg
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think there are oak and hazel bows as well
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Elm was by far the most common wood during the mesolithic period. As the neolithic age came, yew started to move north and replaced elm as the primary wood. As Aksel said, the are a few oak and hazel examples.
Kyle
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How's the performance on these sapling bows compared to a stave of similar design? I'm wondering if the crowned back helps with reduced weight
Ben, the TBB says they do, or can, or something. The line, I think from the chapter "Bow Woods" in Vol 3 or 4 is:"Longbows made from small diameter staves seem to perform best." If a bow can TAKE a crowned back (Iand osage, hickory, elm and some other CAN) the belly will be fine.
However, I think they are great, but it's not so much that it'll revolutionize archery or anything, maybe not even so much as that you'd notice. A bow like Aksel made is a good choice for a small stave like that, a good solid performer. Likewise, a less crowned flatbow with skinny tips is a good choice for a slightly larger diameter elm, and a bendy-handle/parallel-sided middle bow is a good choice for a shorter, small diameter stave.
I love the stuff. And essentially the same goes for ash and other white woods. They do fine with toasted bellies,too.
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On that sapling is there a crown? I would figure on saplings with the small diameter there would be a significant crown. If so would it affect the performance on wood such as elm. Is there better wood that will not lose performance with such crowns?
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In the original post he mentions the sapling was only 2" or less diameter, so it would have to have a crown.
The current discussion is about exactly that, and I find elm bows from small diameter saplings like that to perform just fine.
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yes there is a crown, but elm and yew can handle it very well. That is probably a clue as to why the stoneage bowyers preferred them, since they used saplings for bows.
I had a look in TBB 1 yesterday and Tim Baker write in Bow design and Performance:
High crowned limbs are actually narrower limbs with dead weight at their sides
but
- with a wide belly to resist compression, a high crowned bow will have minimal set. But it's narrow back will be dangerously overworked. Small diameter trees should make only low-weight bows, or longer bows. Of course there are shades of exception. Some woods are stronger in tension than others. To the degree this is true such woods can stand up to high crown strain. Two woods which handle tension well are Hickory and Elm.
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next bow is coming along, floor tillering, rasping and scraping the limbs flat and rounding of sharp edges.
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Bow has got a funny profile. Handle is sticking out front so the belly side of the grip is in line with the limbs. First pull, bit of scraping to even out the tiller a bit.
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I want to make an ancient European bow with elm as it was the most used. I can find red elm on eBay but, was it used in ancient Europe ? Pacific yew is available but, was it used in Europe ? What is available material available to make an accurate example of an ancient European bow?
I would make a new post here but, we are on a European bow subject.
Thanks,
Greg
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Hi Greg, I have no experience working with red elm, but Yew was used for similar bows I am making. Make 1 of both :D
from wikipedia on red elm: The species superficially resembles American elm U. americana, but is more closely related to the European wych elm U. glabra
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Great response Askel ! Red it is 8)
Thanks,
Greg
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So sorry! Excuse spelling
Greg
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Greg, where do you live? If in the US, I have seen elm growing in literally every single State I have visited. That includes CA, OR, WA, UT, NV, CO, ID, MT, KS, NM, AZ, OK, TX, NC, SC, MN, WI, and OH. IT's all along roads and in woods, vacant lots, ditches, riverbottoms, etc.
The issue with red elm sold in board form is that sellers are often not that careful to identify species, so any elm with lots of darker heartwood might get sold as "red elm". If you are buying a stave, maybe ask the guy first.
The good news is that any elm will make a bow, though some species are really a lot better, even the worst is acceptable.
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I live in K.C. Mo.. The stave's on ebay are not from boards. At my age I can't harvest stave's myself. I will find something eventually. I collected a truck load of Osage years ago but, I'm out now. Still, I prefer to use the same wood for the design I'm using as was used originally.
Thanks for the response,
Greg
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Aksel, can you explain how you decide what side of a sapling will become the back vs. belly?
Also, is your axe a single- or double-bevel?
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I live in K.C. Mo.. The stave's on ebay are not from boards. At my age I can't harvest stave's myself. I will find something eventually. I collected a truck load of Osage years ago but, I'm out now. Still, I prefer to use the same wood for the design I'm using as was used originally.
Thanks for the response,
Greg
Well unless those Vikings were here early and going home with staves then Red Elm and Pacific Yew were not making ancient European bows. ;)
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True enough, Pat, if you need an exact match, I guess it's gotta be a European variety.
Greg, that kind of brings up a good point. I'm not suggesting you have to, but one of the things I like about working with 2-4" saplings is, if I see a good one, I can harvest it with a Swiss Army knife if I have to, and pack it home in any old car. ;D
Aksel, I have wondered about that bit in the TBB for a while, too. Baker made a few mistakes and suppositions in that early book, but not many, and I have been well served by following his advice.
But, I don't particularly find the rectangle cross section to be best, and I don't find crowned staves to act like they have dead weight at the sides. It seems that having enough BELLY width, and enough back strength to hold the back is what counts. In the same book he suggests against using staves too crowned, but then suggests "trapping" limbs to shave weight. They seem a lot the same to me.
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on red elm: The species superficially resembles American elm U. americana, but is more closely related to the European wych elm U. glabra
interesting comments on some of the American varieties here http://www.millerpublishing.com/Naw/hw_glossary.html
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txdm ; the back of the bow is always the outside of the tree. In the bow im working on now a big knot poked out so I decided I make it the handle- thats why it looks backwards.
The axe is double bevel but it is so thin, like a knife so it's light and gives you great control.
Springbuck, yeah I know. Would like to have an updated TBB. Must say I am more successful making elm bows from small diameter trees than massive logs with flat backs, and they don't seem to shoot any worse, but I might be wrong.
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PatM
Pretty funny! Red elm would seem to be as close as I can find readily available. I don't use Osage to make Northeastern native bows either. You may have something on that Viking bow in N. America though ;D
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How do you tell "red elm" from the other varieties? What we called American elm in St Louis has very large leaves, while "Chinese elm" had small leaves, and seemed to be resistant to Dutch elm disease.
Hawkdancer
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The one's I have seen as staves on ebay had an almost red center with a light outer ring. Hope I can get info. from the seller and verify. I guess white Oak could be another option too. I will probably have a Vine Maple stave soon. They sure can make interesting primitive looking designs.
Thanks for your advice,
Greg
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txdm ; the back of the bow is always the outside of the tree. In the bow im working on now a big knot poked out so I decided I make it the handle- thats why it looks backwards.
What I meant to ask is, how do you decide which side of a whole sapling/limb will become the back of a bow, before you split it?
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I'd pick the cleanest side, or the side that will allow the bow to have natural reflex. You have to look at the wood and see the bow inside the piece.
Kyle
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Exactly what Kyle said. And usually you dont need to split a sapling, the handle is often as thick as the whole tree - just start cut away wood of the belly side of the limbs.