Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Chris3kilo on November 08, 2016, 07:08:36 am
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My drawlength is 30" and according to a website my optimal longbow bowlength would then be 70".
But finding straight 70" staves is really hard.
At the moment I'm working on a elder stave wich max. would be 62" from nock to nock. Is it even possible to get 30" drawlength out of a stave like that and what drawweight could I hope for? Maybe some of you guys could share some insane drawlengths you got from short bows. :)
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It can be done. Easiest way is a bendy handle with recurves and wide limbs. I have gotten 26" with 45 ntn and 28 with 48. But, thay wasn't an easy build.
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Wow so maybe there's hope. :)
Unfortunately the with is already cut out. The stave is now only 4cm wide. It has some knotss and a soft crown. I'm not a huge fan of bending in the handle, but I'll try keeping it real short. Would paper backing be a good idea?
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And what was the reasoning behind narrowing the limbs like that at this point?
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I think the stave was from a small diameter trunk so just tapering the thickness reduced the width.
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Bendy is the safest bet with what you have to work with. Or you could splice in some length on the tips
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I helped a friend with a 34" draw length make an osage bow. I think we went 73"ntn for a rigid handle bow with a 7-8" non bending handle area.
That bow sure was smooth for my 26" draw. :)
Chris what type of bow did you use to measure your draw length?
Jawge
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Marc I don't like wider limbs. Rather have no bow. But in worst case it'll fit my girlfriends drawlength so it would be for her if you guys say it isn't possible to achieve 30".
George thats one huge friend you got :laugh:
I'm a new archer and bowyer so my drawlength is calculated from fingertip to finger tip. Had a beech longbow 70" that pulled 40# at 30" and that bow felt perfect. Unfortunately I made it from some deadwood I found and it broke later on due to rot.
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How tall are you?
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Marc I don't like wider limbs. Rather have no bow.
Well then you'll need length. But no bow? Really?
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Yea really.
I'm 196 cm tall
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6 feet 5 11⁄64 inches
Man you non-metric guys must be good at math :laugh:
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"I don't like wider limbs. Rather have no bow."
Me too. Well, not that I'd rather have NO bow... more like, I'd rather use wood, designs, and construction methods that allowed me to have what I wanted... and there are plenty.
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What draw weight do you want?
I think it should be doable..
barely bending handle built up with cork? maybe built up on the back like wizardgoat does it, that should give you a little extra draw length
deflexed with flipped tips?
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Well, me too. The log did look promising when i cut. 2m long. But elder have a hollow pith with somekind of humus stuff in, and it had some critical limb twist that meant that I had to cut alot off. So know I got a too short stave that i wanna make the best of. I hope it is doable with some deadstraight tillering.
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Just 40-45 lbs would be fine. Where can I see wizardgoats bow?
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you might want to get a suitalbe stave for your long draw and narrow limb design preferecne
making a bow can be difficult,, and if you start out at a disadvantage, even more difficult,,
you may have to splice two billets together,,
wider limb bows shoot great,,,bendy handle bows shoot great,, I like a bow that shoots great,, and the look or design is secondary to me,, well come to think of it,, I like all bows,, :)
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Make it a hornbow core? xD
Maybe bamboo back it? Sinew? Rawhide?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56002.0.html
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50663.0.html
look at the string follow on this one! Could make it sort of like that? -> http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,51644.0.html
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58004.0.html
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That's all amazing bows!
Might try splice two pieces on my next bow
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OK, how narrow could you live with before you abandon the sport? O:) Use that measurement as your baseline and you can figure things out from there.
I have made a number of bows that draw way over 30 inches at only 65 inches or less in length. But some of them were wider and had sinew on them.
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if you put sinew on an osage bow,,, it would not have to be wide,,,, and could draw 30 inches at 60 inch length,,a little over 1 inch would do it,,
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Chris,
While you are waiting for a good stave, there's always boards.
A good, straight grained red oak board can make a fine bow.
More on my site.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
Jawge
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Splice in siyahs ;)
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Thanks George and Brad. I'll try Sinew first.
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I'll tiller the bow to 25" first and then see if got the nerve. :laugh:
I can't help to wonder; thin limbs and high drawlength must make the bow very fast right?
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Chris, keeping your wood in good shape with a long draw length is a challenge. You can pretty easily not break a bow but that doesn't mean the bow hasn't failed. Once it starts to take set you have reached your maximum draw length wherever that happens to be.
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Aha didn't know that. So I should keep a close eye on the tillering stick when the bow starts taking set?
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I don't believe that is true.
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Pat it is true, once it starts taking set you might squeeze out another couple of inches but it just keeps getting worse from that point on.
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I haven't found that to be true.
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Maybe it depends on the type of wood?
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I know what your saying badger, but I don't believe a bow with bad set has necessarily failed.
Failed to me means broken, but to you it may mean something different.
Chris, if a narrow bow is what your after, then you'll have to go long as others have stated.
For a 30" draw, shortest I'd go is 64-66" with a slightly bending handle and recurves.
If your new to making bows I'd recommend going even longer 68-72"
I recently made a bow for a very big guy, nearly 70# at 34", I tillered it to 35", and the bow is 79" with a stiff handle
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It'll be a 25" Drawlength bow for my girlfriend then. I'll continue the hunt for a more suitable stave for myself. Finding the right stave is as exciting as making the bow anyway :) I thank you for your expertise wich I gotta trust with all these awesome bows I see on this site
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And perhaps I'll try to keep a open mind for wider limbs. ::) because I do like shorter bows.
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I myself never cared for limbs over 1.5" wide, but I have come to realize the benefits in certain woods and gladly make them up to 2" wide to make the best bow I can.
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They are just best looking that way! :)
So my last thought is deflex.. wouldn't that alliw for a higher drawlength.
And how is it bend, because that part of the bow is, on my bows, pretty thick?
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there are many different effective ways to tiller a bow,,,, deflex,, reflex,, etc etc,, etc,,,,,
but a nice straight stave bow can shoot amazing,,and is not that complicated to make,, I would suggest,, just making a great shooting ,, simple design bow at first,, you will not be dissapointed with the cast or performance,, or the durability ,,,
as your experience increases,, of course try anything,,
your straight stave bow will still be hitting the mark,,
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I have made a 40# 62" long 25"DL longbow from a hazel sapling 2-3 weeks ago. It wasn't pretty but it shoots fine (for a noob archer)
That one fits my gf too. So I do have some extra energi to put into a new bow. That's why I wouldn't mind playing around and possibly breaking this bow.
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Well i would mind, but I'd still have something to shoot :laugh:
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Hazel is good, and you should have no big issue to find suitable lenght, and very easy to work.
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Agreed freke. Hazel is one of the things I'm always looking for.
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all this "you have to be super duper long for any semi-long draw length" just seems so discouraging.. though maybe 25" makes more sense as a safe bow with that, yeah
good sinew backed wood should easily do 30" with a 60" long, 1" narrow limbs??? Just wonder, what wood.. Osage D bow?
Really wish it wasn't so hard making something like my Korean synthetic 50" bow with 32" draw length, with natural materials. The horn bows are crazy to use, not easy like the synthetic. Maybe bamboo and sinew... (or nylon cable back >:D )
Look at this guy. You could try, as long as you're not really expecting it to work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imBWlcJE8KE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmDngX92XQ
70" long, 41" draw length... it's like 35" out of a 60" bow
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Loon several examples were given to achieve his draw length but he has issues with most of them, sinew is not as easy to do as most people seem to think before they try it. The width of the limbs is often dictated by the wood of choice as all natural materials differ and the synthetics you mention don't. Skill level also inters into the mix of what you can get from a stave. A 60" long stave only gives a working length of 58" so there is even less to work with than some think. With a bendy handle 28" draw is probably the most draw length that the majority on here would try for without sinew. With sinew and a perfect tiller you could get 30, no reason to get discouraged but some guys need to be realistic when working with natural materials, horn bows are up the skill ladder a bit😉
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Don't see how a hornbows or sinew backing would be that hard. I might be new with bows, but I'm no stranger working with tools. Actually I get payed for that.
My impression is that the majority here thinks it a long shot getting a 62" bow with a DL on 30" without a bending handle (wich feels odd to me) and with the "just" 4cm wide limbs I ended up with. And I'll listen to that and make it a shorter drawlength. Got to make something out of this bow, because elder is beautiful wood.
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Build one and report back :D :D :D Emphasis on the "report back", especially if it fails ;)
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I'll finish, it one way or another and report back :)
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Don't see how a hornbows or sinew backing would be that hard. I might be new with bows, but I'm no stranger working with tools. Actually I get payed for that.
Surprisingly a lot of guys that work with tools for building static objects struggle with actual bowmaking. Particularly when working in more organic shapes.
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Lol are you always this pessimistic PatM ? :laugh:
Or are you saving it all for me?
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I save it for all of the guys who are overly optimistic about how easily they will master the more complex forms of bowmaking. ;)
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I was paid to build things with tools for 30 years man and i have built some simple horn bows. Really nothing simple about them. The problem isn't really the length that you have but the width that is going to be the problem, i imagine that you will end up with quite a bit of set which will effect the performance considerably. Did anyone tell you not to build it i won't, you have 62" ntn just use a 4" grip and 1-1/2" fades and go for it. And no patm spreads the love equally lol
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Lol bubby. Glad to hear. What i meant by working with tools is, don't hold back good idea's just because you think it's too hard for a newbie bowyer because I'm generally good with tools, glue and plastic/epoxy stuff. Ok.. hornbow's didn't look as easy as i thought but sinew would be easy, i'm sure.
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Lol are you always this pessimistic PatM ? :laugh:
Yup, he is. But its a good pessimism he offers.
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making a sinew bow is not easy,, it is not so much about the tools,, or knowing how to use them,,,, there are things that just cant be measured or explained and have to be learned by experience,, once you learn how to do it,, it is still not easy,, but easier,,
just because you can use a pencil,, does not mean you can draw a portait of someone,, or if you know how to use a brush,, doesnt mean making a painting will be easy ,,,,,etc etc etc etc,,, no its not rocket science,, (for some guys it is) but there is not part of it that is easy,, from the start cutting the right tree( this is not easy), to getting a good even tiller that will perform well for the bow,,,,making a durable bow that has good cast may seem easy,, it can be fun,, but never seemed easy,,even after 30 years of making them,,
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Good thing he didn't offer this guy his "good" pessimism before starting on that bow http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=28867.0 :laugh:
Making a bow isn't easy ain't arguing with that. But to prepare and glue on sinew looks like the easiest part of the process to me.
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Good thing he didn't offer this guy his "good" pessimism before starting on that bow http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=28867.0 :laugh:
Making a bow isn't easy ain't arguing with that. But to prepare and glue on sinew looks like the easiest part of the process to me.
Why not? The bow is poorly tillered but the design is solid.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp78/pat_05/IMG_0887.jpg)
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True but he did reach an incredible drawlength. Is that your bow on the picture PatM?
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That's just a PVC bow he made with a heat gun.
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PatM's pic or my link?
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I hate to agree with pat😜 but he is right the square tiller ends up giving a little more length and juniper bends pretty easy, it also explodes on a whim with a well tillered bow. The fact is you can find examples that will go against the norm with almost anything. That doesn't mean that that is the best way to go, there is a reason most everyone gave roughly the same advice😉
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(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/bubncheryl/ishi%20bow/be58b13a-4b36-41a0-996c-aba3516771cd_zps5a04b337.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/user/bubncheryl/media/ishi%20bow/be58b13a-4b36-41a0-996c-aba3516771cd_zps5a04b337.jpg.html)
This bow is around 55" ntn and will draw 28" but it is about 2" wide, it is also sinew backed or i wouldn't have attempted that long a draw
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Sweet bow. How did you get that handle so thin without it bending?
In my logic, tillering out those hinges would allow for even more draw length. But I'm probably overly optimistic now.
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Hinges?
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That handle does bend some, if you tiller a bendy correctly you don't really notice it bending very much and you certainly can't see it in a pic
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You might be able to get 30" out of a 62" bow, depends if the wood is tension strong and elastic enough to survive the process. String angle would be a problem but bending in slight recurves would help with that
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don't know
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I pull a 29 in. Draw a tad over and I made this bow from a 62 in. Stave it's Hickory/sinew with a heat treated belly it's a great shooting hunting bow I also tillered it to 30in. & flip the tips just a bit for string angle, the limbs are 1 1/4 wide it shoots the mid 150fps with B50 & 530 grain arrow with sinew you could probably pull it off with your narrow limbs.
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That's a really goodlooking bow. And thanks for actually trying to help unlike some of the grumpy old men who only seem to be interrested in telling you how bad at making bows you are. It's a mystery to me why they're even active on forums if they're not interested in helping.
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I guess I'm one of the old men but i don't think i said you were a lousy bow maker and don't remember anyone else saying that. In fact i don't think i have seen a pic of any of your work sooooo i wouldn't say that. People are giving you advice take it or not your choice jeesh don't ask a ? If ya don't want an answer
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I am of cause talking about PatM. I don't know.. people are just more respectful to each other on this side of the Trump wall. Maybe thats why we don't constantly shoot each other. :laugh: :laugh:
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Hey Chris I think your misenterpeting what people are trying to do this hobby can be heart breaking ,kick in the gut pain full ,you can spend a 100 hours making a bow & over look some thing that one of these GOM said & make fire wood ,I know I have done it ! I think most are just trying to help , but I understand how things can get frustrating , If you feel you can make the bow , just make it & post it so guys like me can learn , But to be Honest whith you Chris I find you across the pound political comments offensive ,we just honered our fallen veterans , I think we have earned the right to build a wall ,I would leave the political crap out . I'm just saying that as politely as I can !
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I actually showed you exactly how to make this shorter bow with a longer draw. Did you miss that?
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Look at it this way chris.Bow making can be an adventure and will definitely have it's learning curves to it.Sometimes good/sometimes bad.No matter if a person has been using hand tools all their lives or not.There is one thing in a bowyers personality that you must have,and that's persistance.Persistance to solve problems.Because they will appear.An old saying by a bow maker in the past I always remember.A bowyer has to be almost more persistant than smart sometimes.Bow making because of it's variables in wood can be and usually is problem solving 101.
I hav'nt any doubts that you have this quality,because if you don't it'll just be an experiment with no conclusion.I personally will vouch for all of the commenters who have given you suggestions and have seen their bows on this forum.I hope you can realize this and have fun with the hobby.
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Well this is all moot now since Chris has put his account up for deletion, hopefully a lesson to those that were overly critical.
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I hear ya.Guess doing more listening than talking works best heh???My girl friend seems to like that line.
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I apolgise if I was overly critical Im a very easy going person but when somebody trashes our country thats where I draw the line sorry
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He didn't trash your country. ;)
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Anybody feeling like Pat should hang better go through this entire thread and read EVERY post. For that matter read every post on here and tell me where it went south and who is to blame.
As far as knocking countries of origin, good riddance. We are all proud of where we are from, or at least should be.
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Yep Ritch I think that political comment about our country was uncalled for,and many a time I get advice I don't want to hear too Pat.Not so much any more because I realized they are right.
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Oh well, a teaching moment has been lost :). The political comment was a deal breaker anyway, little does he know that Pat is Canadian ;D
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Every once in a while we get a person that asks questions and just refuses to believe the answers. I don't know if they just don't phrase the questions right or if they are just full of themselves. Sometimes it's tough to get a question in print. If you are reading this Chris go back and re-read the whole post. It was all good advice, honestly given. Some people a blunt sure, but at least you know they aren't dumbing it down for you. I would rather have someone tell the truth and piss me off then have them encourage me to do something that they honestly think you're going to have trouble with.
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Why is the phrase, " gone south, " when things dont go right? Pearl, I take offence from that. Just givin ya a hard time.
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Everyone knows the USA sucks. Should have left it to the native americans, at least they could build decent bows unlike all you immigrants!!! 8) 8) 8)
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Everyone knows the USA sucks. Should have left it to the native americans, at least they could build decent bows unlike all you immigrants!!! 8) 8) 8)
Now thats actually kinda funny
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I didn't mean that their advice was bad (after all they have much more experience), just that I wish that it was possible safely. from MReiska's videos, it's still possible, just need exceptional wood and stuff I think.
heck, even with the 'safer' recommended methods, bows still break..
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Another OIE*.
*Online Instant Expert