Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: John32r on December 03, 2015, 12:10:53 am
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Can anybody else here throw a heavy spear by hand more accurately than with an atlatl?
I was watching these videos of people throwing atlatls at world champs and other competitions, and such... Seemed really inaccurate. They could barely hit with consistency targets that they could never sneak up on if they were wild animals. Then I remembered this quote about Australian indigenous hunters and their woomeras:
"skill varies, but “takes an exceptionally good man to kill or disable at more than 20 yards.”
Source:
http://web.grinnell.edu/anthropology/Atlatl%20Stuff%20for%20John/atlatlbibliography.htm
Yeah. I think I can throw a spear 20 yards easier than I can with the atlatl. The atlatl dars just have a mind of their own. They look like fricken swodfish due to the flexibility when you look at the darts on high speed camera footage.
Something to remember is that in North America among the Indians the atlal was largely abandoned while hand thrown and trusted spears stuck around up to the late 1800s. And how about those Inuit and their "throwing sticks"? I've seen more videos of spears being thrown without them than with them!
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Well think what you want but a spear if you can throw it twenty yds isn't going to have the energy of the atlatl dart, even at ten yds, since they have been made legal to hunt with in some states kills have been made with atlatl
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With practice comes proficiency,
I've seen a you tube video of a deer being killed in PA with an atlatl.
Most spears were made for thrusting and not throwing, when throwing the atlatl gives more power and longer range but the thrower has to practice to be accurate, I've seen people hit a mammoth target in the kill zone at 35 yards.
All of that flexing in the shaft that you see is the same thing that archers deal with, archers paradox, it's just magnified because the atlatl dart is so long.
Kevin
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It also comes down to how you hunt. If you are a spot and stalk guy, you don't have much chance, if you are like me, and find a well used path and wait, you have a much better chance at getting an animal within 20 yards.
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Think about driving a car. You likely do it EVERYDAY. The whole process has become well practiced and automatic to you because your mind and body have learned, both consciously and subconsciously, to do the small details of doing it correctly each and every time. You maintain the center of your lane, parallel park, drive in reverse between obstacles, and adjust your speed to road conditions without much effort or even thought really.
Ancient atlatl hunters had a similar relationship with the tools they used every single day. It was just something they knew well and did almost automatically.
If we were able to offer one of these intrepid ancient hunters an F-150 4X4 and tell them to go from Cahokia to Tenochtitlan, they would likely have difficulties similar to the one's you and I would face with trying to use an atlatl effectively. ;)
OneBow
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Interesting.
I am not sure if Montezuma and the Aztecs had atatls
or not. Although they did use spears as did all warring
folks up until the first world war. Still used in a lot of jungle areas.
There are many pre Colombian atatls found throughout Central America.
The Alaskan natives used atatls well into historic times.
Masai warriors have killed full grown male lions with thrusting and
throwing spears in historic times. Although steel tipped.
I threw the javelin on the high school track team.
Had fun but wouldn't want to make a living with either weapon.
Zuma
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John,
Not trying to be a smart ass but I believe you are comparing two completely different types of weapons.....at least as employed by Native Americans. The Atlatl is a projecting weapon and a spear (not a javelin) is a thrusting weapon. While the one acts much like an arrow in projecting the lethal point from stand-off distance, the other is/was used to inflict large wounds; repeatedly, and at close range.
An example would be the great lakes tribes who regularly hunted both Moose and Buffalo, and they were not horse cultures. They did so by being smart. One way was to run or heard these animals into deep snow fields where they foundered and the hunters could run up beside them on snowshoes and stab repeatedly, then run on to another. Another way was to drive them into water where hunters in canoes could paddle up to the swimming animal and again stab repeatedly. The system is very similar when buffalo were run over a "jump" and then finished off at the bottom. The spear is the enduring weapon while the atlatl was replaced by the bow.....even the Inues' harpoons (and throwing stcks) are still like spears more than atlatl's and used because you cant get within arms length of whales or walrus etc. and so the harpoon head requires a very short throw distance for the harpoon head to be delivered, but the killing lance is hand held.
Survival and subsistence hunting has nothing in common whith white guys sport hunting. One requires the dead animal without injury to the hunter, we do it for sport and invent reasoning and rational for "how to do it".
Sorry for "droning on" just wished to point out that the atlatl, spear, javelin, and lance are all different weapons so I do not believe one can be compared to the other without being taken in context of their intended purpose.
rich
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Very well stated rich :) loved that. ;) Also when you do something ,what ever it may be every day to survive you can get pretty good at it. Unlike us get out once a week for fun. :)
Pappy
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Half Eye what you are suggesting is that Native Americans were living fundamentally at the level of Neanderthals, hunting with handheld thrusting spears using natural traps such as the one at Tabun, Israel, where Neanderthals drove gazelle and speared them 105,000 years ago.
This "bread and butter" of hunting sustencence was never replaced or substituted for with any cultural advancements, be they the atlatl, the bow and arrow, or the boleadoras (which totally supplanted the bow in Patagonia in 1860). Any cultural or technological differences between Neanderthals/Denisovans and Indians and North Eurasian hunters are therefore totally superficial.
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Very well stated rich :) loved that. ;) Also when you do something ,what ever it may be every day to survive you can get pretty good at it. Unlike us get out once a week for fun. :)
Pappy
What about the aboriginal Australians? Their maximum hunting range with the atlatl/woomera was at best 20 yards.
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Atlatl is objectively better. It's more accurate, has more stopping power behind it, and moves faster. But if spearchucking is your thing, that's fine too.
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John that is about my limit with my selfbow, so I would say that's pretty good. ;) :) Most good hunters should be able to get with in 20 yards of a critter that want to kill. :)
Pappy
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Well said Rich. Your post got me to thinking about a pretty common hunting practice that is used in my area. A large group of hunters splits into 2 groups, walkers and blockers. The blockers set up in ambush around a clearing or natural funnel such as a gully. The walkers go to the opposite end of the woods that are being hunted and spread out in a line and start walking through the patch of woods. They push the deer ahead of them towards the blockers in the kill zone. In essence, it's the same tried and true method of hunting that has been employed for millennia. The weapons have changed of course. They're using high powered rifles instead of spears, but the basic idea has not. This same tactic is used for pheasant in the grasslands and fields using dogs and shotgun. Man has hunted this way for along time even if the weapons have advanced the tactics have not. Just a somewhat related observation that popped into my head while reading through this. Josh
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It's more accurate,
Evidence, please.
has more stopping power behind it
No it does not.
, and moves faster.
Relevance?
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Interesting.
I am not sure if Montezuma and the Aztecs had atatls
or not. Although they did use spears as did all warring
folks up until the first world war. Still used in a lot of jungle areas.
There are many pre Colombian atatls found throughout Central America.
The Alaskan natives used atatls well into historic times.
Masai warriors have killed full grown male lions with thrusting and
throwing spears in historic times. Although steel tipped.
I threw the javelin on the high school track team.
Had fun but wouldn't want to make a living with either weapon.
Zuma
I guarantee you a high school javelin thrower can throw a heavier javelin than an atlatl dart for farther distance and with more accuracy than an atlatlist. The maximum hunting range for the atlatl appears to be 20-30 yards, ancient Romans threw spears for twice that distance. At that range an atlatl dart wouldn't even have the kinetic energy to break skin. The atlatl is essentially a scam.
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I would imagine the atlatl as a long range weapon of war they would be most effective, on mass a volley would be devastating I would imagine, and something like the English warbow, and a lot easier to make the darts and shoot for a period of time compared to spear or javelin. You'd probably have to strength train a fair bit to throw spears constantly.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia,
Grande do Norte in mid-17th-century Brazil. Anthropologist Harald Prins offers the following description:
"The atlatl, as used by these Tarairiu warriors, was unique in shape. About 88 cm (35 in) long and 3 to 4.5 cm (1 1⁄4 to 1 3⁄4 in) wide, this spear thrower was a tapering piece of wood carved of brown hard-wood. Well-polished, it was shaped with a semi-circular outer half and had a deep groove hollowed out to receive the end of the javelin, which could be engaged by a horizontal wooden peg or spur lashed with a cotton thread to the proximal and narrower end of the throwing board, where a few scarlet parrot feathers were tied for decoration. [Their] darts or javelins… were probably made of a two-meter long wooden cane with a stone or long and serrated hard-wood point, sometimes tipped with poison. Equipped with their uniquely grooved atlatl, they could hurl their long darts from a great distance with accuracy, speed, and such deadly force that these easily pierced through the protective armor of the Portuguese or any other enemy.".[11]
And I would of thought if you could hunt efficiently with the atlatl you were also trained and well practiced for war, perhaps a good reason to do so?
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That's a guarantee that you can't back up. High school javelin throwers are not throwing much over a couple hundred feet, certainly less than 250'. They are also not throwing at a target. Accuracy isn't even a consideration. As far as ancient Roman javelin throwers go, they achieved their distance with the aid of a leather thong wound around the javelin which acted much the way an atlatl handle does in increasing the force of the cast. You also seem to be confusing effective range with maximum cast range. As Pappy says with his archery equipment, his maximum effective range is 20yds. Do you really think he couldn't cast an arrow farther than that if he was flight shooting with the same equipment? True the javelin carries more force at the same distance as an atlatl dart would due to mass. So far that's the only valid point you've made. As far as just maximum cast goes, I can chuck a dart over a 100 yds and I'm not that good. You aren't going to find anybody that can throw a javelin that far even with the use of a thong. Josh
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What would a typical hunting atlatl dart with a stone head weigh? I would think way more than an arrow and arrows penetrate well with a sharp head.
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I guarantee you a high school javelin thrower can throw a heavier javelin than an atlatl dart for farther distance and with more accuracy than an atlatlist.
Evidence please?
The maximum hunting range for the atlatl appears to be 20-30 yards, ancient Romans threw spears for twice that distance. At that range an atlatl dart wouldn't even have the kinetic energy to break skin. The atlatl is essentially a scam.
Really? ...a scam? Were the deer, buffalo, mammoths, and other Mega Fauna killed by this tool over the millenia in on the fraud?
I realize you cannot use the tool effectively, but that's a rather lonely and VERY anecdotal data point. Do you have some testing or algorithmic calculation somewhere that has made you so certain that what you can't do cannot be done by anyone? I mean seriously, there are thousands of years of historical relationship to this weapon. You may be as old as 90 or 95 at the long end of presumption, - - - are you sure you know what you are attempting to assert here?
All an atlatl does is extend the length of the thrower's arm. The calculations for how that changes the force delivered to the throw is not purely trivial, ...but it's also not rocket science! (...though ironically, it is very like the science required to do rocketry, and may in fact have been human kind's first step into the applied science of projectile science and mathematics.)
I thought this was a pretty good start into some of the evidence you seem to desire. Have a look...
http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
OneBow
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Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.
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Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.
If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?
Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead. They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!
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Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.
Ooookaay.....that sort of logic sounds all too familiar. You wouldn't happen to be a teenager would you John? Josh
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Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.
If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?
Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead. They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!
Hand thrown or thrusted spears are at least 500,000 years old (much older if you count Chimpanzees) and lasted until the 1800s even among civilized nations.
Oldest evidence for atlatl is ~20,000 years old, enjoyed maybe 10,000 years of existence alongside the spear, and went out of style in most parts of the world by the holocene.
Dead? You betcha. It didn't work.
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Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.
If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?
Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead. They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!
Hand thrown or thrusted spears are at least 500,000 years old (much older if you count Chimpanzees) and lasted until the 1800s even among civilized nations.
Oldest evidence for atlatl is ~20,000 years old, enjoyed maybe 10,000 years of existence alongside the spear, and went out of style in most parts of the world by the holocene.
Dead? You betcha. It didn't work.
Ten thousand years of not working?
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Onebow try reading the source in my original post. Maximum hunting range with the atlatl is 20 yards, that's for Australian aboriginals who've been using it for thousands of years. Average high school track meet sees javelins fly over 40 yards. There's a reason this "weapon" was abandoned. Case closed.
If you are not willing to listen to others arguments and consider this a closed case, then why did you bring it up?
Onebow...that's why all those generations upon generations of people dependant on the atlatl are dead. They obviously starved to death waiting for the compound bow and carbon fiber arrows to be invented. Duh!
Hand thrown or thrusted spears are at least 500,000 years old (much older if you count Chimpanzees) and lasted until the 1800s even among civilized nations.
Oldest evidence for atlatl is ~20,000 years old, enjoyed maybe 10,000 years of existence alongside the spear, and went out of style in most parts of the world by the holocene.
Dead? You betcha. It didn't work.
Ten thousand years of not working?
Apparently so. Just how commonly used it was is not known, but the commonality of several animals that existed during it's heyday is known (wooly mammoth and rhino went extinct right around the time it did too). I further express doubt that all the materials described as atlatls or atlatl darts really were atlatls or atlatl darts. Some of them (split based antler points) are now being reinterpreted as weaving equipment.
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back when hunters used atl atls i believe they hunted in groups. one group moving spooking out game, others waiting in ambush. heck modern hunters still do that with guns.lets say you can only hit somethin with a atlatl at 25 yards. lets say it wont be pin point accurate. lets toss 20 darts at intended target all at once. how would you like to place a bet at least one of those 10 out of 20 darts that hit the animal, hit it in a vitals. ?:) group hunting, its what brought home dinner. ;) Tony
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You keep telling everyone to read about the Aboriginals, (plural) in Australia, but I've seen no evidence on your part that the aboriginal you base your whole argument on even knew what he was doing or spoke for all of the Aboriginals in Australia.
I'm starting to think you are one of those people that likes to throw a statement out like you are an authority and then when there are replies you excuse yourself and go to the bathroom.
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You keep telling everyone to read about the Aboriginals, (plural) in Australia, but I've seen no evidence on your part that the aboriginal you base your whole argument on even knew what he was doing or spoke for all of the Aboriginals in Australia.
I'm starting to think you are one of those people that likes to throw a statement out like you are an authority and then when there are replies you excuse yourself and go to the bathroom.
Lol.
The statement is from Baldwin Spencer, an ethnographer who lived among Australian Aboriginal tribes in the late 19th/early 20th centuries.
Here's a link to the quote, you can read the entire book for free if you like.
"The end is fixed into the point of the spear-
thrower, and, aided by the leverage thus gained, he throws it
forward with all his strength. Different men vary much in
their skill in spear-throwing, but it takes an exceptionally
good man to kill or disable at more than twenty yards. "
https://archive.org/stream/nativetribescen01gillgoog#page/n43/mode/2up
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https://www.pinterest.com/pin/179510735124337270/ (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/179510735124337270/)
Here is a good answer.
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Trolling is supposed to be done in an unassuming way. Being right about everything isn't cool. If you already know the answer, don't ask the question.
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Lol I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be abrasive but I think prehistory and history have been mythologized beyond belief. Some people seem to think that everyone around back then was running around looking like Arnold Schwarzenneger, throwing atlatl darts 100,000m to hit squirrels, doing roundhouse kicks to take down elephants and actually killing something with a promontory peg trap, and that the only reason people aren't doing that stuff nowadays is because they don't have time to practice, or didn't eat enough organic food when they were a child, or because their mom didn't breastfeed them, or whatever. And for some reason people seem very, very unwilling to rethink this idea.
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I think you believe that. Everybody else has tried to tell you what they believe but you are too busy listening to yourself to read it.
Joe is right, trolling, I guess you had a lot of time to think with the last 30 day suspension.
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Well John it seems you have a hard on against the ATLATL- or at least folk's appreciation of it. I like to think our ancestors had a very large , mixed bag of ways to solve every day survival problems. Much like we do today, excepting the industrial processes we've inherited from our great, great grandparents. The ATLATL has been a part of that mixed bag of problem solving tools a lot longer than guns, bows and arrows. It's actually still used in some remote societies still extant on our planet. What I am suggesting is that not all people used ATLATL for everything all the time- that for some applications (and I, being a reasonably intelligent modern human, admit to not knowing ALL of those applications as I am not a hunter gatherer--BUT I AM fascinated by ) it was actually the best available. Thus it exists. It exists because it was essential for some activity----for thousands of years.
I've been making/playing with ATLATL for almost two decades, using absolutely anything I can get my hands on to make/experiment with them- modern materials included, and what I can tell you, empirically anyway, is that there is a wide range of purpose you can build ATLATL for. Are you hunting Birds? If I were to scare a large flock of birds (and I have every reason to believe flocks of game birds were larger in prehistory) I could reasonably assume I would hit one or more birds with the ten or so light-weight cane darts I launch at them during the ten or so minutes it takes them to hit the sky. Am I hunting wooly mamoth with ten to 15 men from my tribe? Well if we all have some pretty heavy duty darts and we stand real close we will bring down that beast, yes? well. It happened. If I am a Mayan warrior tasked with killing armored Spanish invaders, along with ten thousand other ATLATL warriors with my ATLATL then yes I will. You've used a lot of sweeping generalisations to discredit the ATLATL. It's fine for you to think whatever you want, but if you honestly want to know the ATLATL, why not make a few (or a few hundred- it's not difficult) and see how they work----then you might appreciate better it's place in humankinds toolbox. Today, in America, we still use the technology-----to throw balls for our dogs. Also, whomever didn't know wether or notthe Aztecs had the ATLATL-----ATLATL is an AZTEC word.
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I think you believe that. Everybody else has tried to tell you what they believe but you are too busy listening to yourself to read it.
Joe is right, trolling, I guess you had a lot of time to think with the last 30 day suspension.
Oh yeah.....that's right. I didn't recognize the username. I should have remembered the MO though. Thanks for the reminder Eddie. Undoubtedly the troll will burn his bridge to PA beyond repair soon enough. Then we can all forget him permanently. Josh
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Someone reported this thread so I took a look...
Very interesting. Not much in the way of hostility, so that's a bit of a downer. But hey, I can pop the corn for something else.
As for the thrown spear being better than the atlatl dart, I'm sure the Schwarzenegger types in the past would agree with you. And when the thrown spear became useless after being broken by the angry bear, a roundhouse kick to the jaw would work nicely to finish off. And then sit down for a nice afternoon of new spear construction while feasting on an organic dinner of wild berries and bear meat.
Point is, the atlatl makes throwing easier. Easy is good. A thrown spear is about as accurate as a thrown rock. And thrown rocks are nothing to sneeze at (especially if you sneeze while a rock is flying toward you and you don't see it). Anyways, there has to be a drastic improvement over thrown rocks for me to use it rather than a rock. I think the atlatl looks pretty good to me. And the ammunition is lighter too.
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I think you believe that. Everybody else has tried to tell you what they believe but you are too busy listening to yourself to read it.
Joe is right, trolling, I guess you had a lot of time to think with the last 30 day suspension.
Thanks you Eddie.
Patrick
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"Much to do about nothing"
"Lol I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be abrasive but I think prehistory and history have been mythologized beyond belief."
Zuma agrees
"Some people seem to think that everyone around back then was running around looking like Arnold Schwarzenneger, throwing atlatl darts 100,000m to hit squirrels, doing roundhouse kicks to take down elephants and actually killing something with a promontory peg trap, and that the only reason people aren't doing that stuff nowadays is because they don't have time to practice, or didn't eat enough organic food when they were a child, or because their mom didn't breastfeed them, or whatever."
Zuma disagrees
And for some reason people seem very, very unwilling to rethink this idea.
Zuma agrees
Here is my opinion about the opinions here in this thread.
Not one, is backed up by more than an opinion.
LOL including mine. But I do have the data if you all are interested.
Does any one here know the real reason for the development
of the Bannerstone? Atatl weight?
Zuma
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Hey Folks, There is a lot of info on Atlatls on the web and if that's not enough you can check out the atlatl association. The bottom line is that atlatls were used world wide and for thousands of years. and in some cultures until historic times. I would argue that someone found the atlatl/ dart useful and effective, or it would not have spread or lasted. The central American city states armed their warriors with atlatls ( and really wicked obsidian-bladed clubs) and gave Conquistadors a workout. ( It turns out that steel armor works well against obsidian weapons.)
I think John32r is placing an awful lot of emphasis on the account of one observer, and the results of an amatuer competition and conveniently ignoring other accounts, experiences and archeologic artifacts. Atlatls ( for me at least) take a lot more practice than archery to obtain any accuracy, but I'm more accurate with them than rocks or thrown spears.
As for banner stones, their method of use is conjectoral, based on positioning in archeologic finds. Modern experiments using them on atlatls has failed to find a proven advantage. That doesn't mean they weren't used as atlatl weights, just means they have no proven advantage. They do make your atlatl look cool though which is reason enough for me. Ron
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Tom Mills is a past president of the World Atlatl Assoc. and I have the pleasure and honor to know him personally.
I have participated in 3D archery shoots for which Tom has received permission from the organizers to do the course with his atlatl. It is quite embarrassing to be a fairly good archer using a modern glass/wood longwow and to be outscored by a guy with a little board and some pointy darts. In fact, Tom has outscored quite a number of the participants using his atlatl and darts.
To postulate that the atlatl is not accurate simply shows me that someone hasn't practiced enough.
Guy
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Tom Mills is a past president of the World Atlatl Assoc. and I have the pleasure and honor to know him personally.
I have participated in 3D archery shoots for which Tom has received permission from the organizers to do the course with his atlatl. It is quite embarrassing to be a fairly good archer using a modern glass/wood longwow and to be outscored by a guy with a little board and some pointy darts. In fact, Tom has outscored quite a number of the participants using his atlatl and darts.
To postulate that the atlatl is not accurate simply shows me that someone hasn't practiced enough.
Guy
Isn't Tom Mills Paleoaleo from Paleoplanet? By his own admission his maximum accurate throwing distance is 30 yards.
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I met the guy who holds the distance record (or at least he did hold it...don't know if he still does). A guy from Arizona. Something crazy like 800 feet or something. I forget exactly. I saw the equipment he used. Was a really long atlatl (betwen 24 and 30" in length) and a really short dart (about 4 1/2' to 5' long). The dart was carbon or aluminum with what appeared to be razor blades (not sharp) for fletching.
With my 7' arundo darts and 22" atlatl, I can throw just under 100 yards. My darts are built for close up accuracy (anywhere from a few feet to 30 yards or so) though, and not for distance.
I hate throwing distance...it always blows out my elbow!"
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/12715/distance-of-throw-for-atlatl#.VmJ3_FnnZJ9
These guys at the competitions are struggling to hit big targets at 20 yards. And making a lot of noise doing so. The darts are very slow and have low kinetic energy by the time they get to the target. I have never seen videos of Atlatl champs throwing at farther distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5o7RUAnI
EDIT: Warning there is a lot of cussing in this video by frustrated throwers so please be warned if children are nearby.
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Yes, that is Tom.
Perhaps I need a clarification:
Is the atlatl a "failure" due to inaccuracy or because you can throw a spear a longer distance?
If it's inaccuracy then you're wrong. People like Tom Mills and Chris Henry easily show that it's capable of perfectly respectable accuracy within its intended performance envelope.
If because you can throw a spear further... so what? Throwing a spear further does not mean you have the accuracy to collect dinner.
The video you link to above is essentially as meaningless as if you gave a bunch of ordinary people access to race cars and expected them to turn in performances in line with professional race car drivers.
Guy
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The video you link to above is essentially as meaningless as if you gave a bunch of ordinary people access to race cars and expected them to turn in performances in line with professional race car drivers.
Guy
This bit of video features some legends of the atlatl world at the European Spearthrowing Championship at Tauteval, France in August, 1998. Pictured are Lloyd Pine (originator of the ISAC), Bill Tate (founding member WAA), Suzie Brown (the Queen of Colorado), Jim Ray (the Old Mammoth Hunter), and the first World Champion (1996), Pascal Chauvaux. Also present is Cyrille Huc, who placed 4th in the World ISAC in 2009.
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I know for a fact that at 15 yds my atlatl dart with just a sharpened point gets 6" of penetration on a three d target i think your way off base saying at 20-30 yds thay wont have enough energy to kill something, and i don't think you can throw a spear farther than an atlatl can travel, accuracy ; at 20 yds my son consistantly puts it in the vitals, just do a search for atlatl hunting kills i think you will be surprised
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You know some people think they are the sharpest knife in the drawer and cherry pic info to make them look that way, if we just don't respond to this type of post and they don't get the attention they want they eventually will fade away
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As for banner stones, their method of use is conjectoral, based on positioning in archeologic finds. Modern experiments using them on atlatls has failed to find a proven advantage. That doesn't mean they weren't used as atlatl weights, just means they have no proven advantage. They do make your atlatl look cool though which is reason enough for me. Ron
Thanks Ron
Zuma
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So what if a tool in my trade is used on every continent and has been done so for time immemorial, and only in very recent times is replaced by a machine?
For a more concrete example, the air nailer has now PROVEN that 10,000 years of hammers was a waste of time, the hammer was an abject failure, and anyone that is uses one is severely lacking in cognitive skills and a rank atavist?
Yes, pre-history (and even recent history) has been mythologized. But when a tool worked for cultures on every habitated continent by thousands of cultures over tens of thousands of years, that argues for it's inclusion in the list of successful tools along with hammers, stone knives and points, Archimedes screw, and canvas sails, all items that have been generally replaced with modern tools.
John, I was taking bets whether you would have the nerve to come back after being bounced. I am paying them off. The current pool regards long you last.
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I guarantee you a high school javelin thrower can throw a heavier javelin than an atlatl dart for farther distance and with more accuracy than an atlatlist. The maximum hunting range for the atlatl appears to be 20-30 yards, ancient Romans threw spears for twice that distance. At that range an atlatl dart wouldn't even have the kinetic energy to break skin. The atlatl is essentially a scam.
If you really believe that then you wouldn't mind someone proficient with an atlatl throwing one at you tipped with a well made flint point at the proposed 60 yards
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https://youtu.be/2L-r68VGtJA
...I'm quite impressed by it, and they look like a few retired folk there, am I talking about the same thing atlatl?
Ruddy Darter.
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Primitive people didnt worry about "ethical kills". They were trying to survive and could track a wounded animal way better than modern man. So Im sure they didnt wait for perfect shot oppurtunity or not take the shot if the animal was staying "out of range". They would take the shot no matter what especially if they were on edge of starvation.
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This whole thread is like the field of Anthropology, one long, guessing game of one persons idea of what somebody did 10,000 years ago. Kinda boring with no proof.
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Light Spear (equivalent to a javelin): 2 pounds, 50 mph, 1" diameter
Heavy Spear (equivalent to a Roman pilum): 5 pounds, 25 mph, 1 1/2" diameter
Light Atlatl Dart: 3 ounces, 85 mph, 1/2" diameter
Heavy Atlatl Dart: 6 ounces, 70 mph, 5/8" diameter
Kinetic Energy Hunting Usage
< 25 ft. lbs. Small game
25 - 41 ft. lbs. Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)
42 - 65 ft. lbs. Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)
> 66 ft. lbs. Toughest Game (cape buffalo, grizzly, etc.)
MOMENTUM CALCULATIONS:
In descending order
Projectile Weight Velocity Momentum
Heavy Spear 5 pounds 37 fps 5.75 slug-feet/second
Light Spear 2 pounds 73.5 4.57
Heavy Dart 6 ounces 103 1.20
Light Dart 3 ounces 125 .73
SECTIONAL DENSITY CALCULATIONS:
In descending order
Projectile Weight Diameter Sectional Density
Heavy Spear 5 pounds 1.5" 2.222 psi
Light Spear 2 pounds 1" 2.000
Heavy Dart 6 ounces .625" .960
Light Dart 3 ounces .5" .750
How Hard Does It Hit?
www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm - (http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm -)
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Primitive people didnt worry about "ethical kills". They were trying to survive and could track a wounded animal way better than modern man. So Im sure they didnt wait for perfect shot oppurtunity or not take the shot if the animal was staying "out of range". They would take the shot no matter what especially if they were on edge of starvation.
Right, but Baldwin Spencer explicitly states that it took an exceptionally good man to kill "or disable" at more than 20 yards. Which implies that an atlatl dart is not typically disabling at that range, even if it hits the target.
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Looks like the atlatl wasn't penetrating steel armor after all, even at near point-blank distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw
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Looks like the atlatl wasn't penetrating steel armor after all, even at near point-blank distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw
Hubris. Hubris completely void of humility, common decency and general unspoken rules of engaging in a "meaningful " discourse. John23r, your threads, post, and replies are full of hubris bent on proving people wrong by setting them up with your opening statements. After which, you proceed into a nonsensical apology with facts, quotes, figures, charts, etc..
Primitive Archer members, my suggestion is to not reply to Jon's post or replies. We all have better things to do than to argue with the court jester.
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Kind of like the little Troll under the bridge.
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Primitive people didnt worry about "ethical kills". They were trying to survive and could track a wounded animal way better than modern man. So Im sure they didnt wait for perfect shot oppurtunity or not take the shot if the animal was staying "out of range". They would take the shot no matter what especially if they were on edge of starvation.
Right, but Baldwin Spencer explicitly states that it took an exceptionally good man to kill "or disable" at more than 20 yards. Which implies that an atlatl dart is not typically disabling at that range, even if it hits the target.
Your a tard
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Kind of like the little Troll under the bridge.
^^^
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.
This sense of the word "troll" and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, but
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Looks like the atlatl wasn't penetrating steel armor after all, even at near point-blank distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjV7lYP6hRw
Hubris. Hubris completely void of humility, common decency and general unspoken rules of engaging in a "meaningful " discourse. John23r, your threads, post, and replies are full of hubris bent on proving people wrong by setting them up with your opening statements. After which, you proceed into a nonsensical apology with facts, quotes, figures, charts, etc..
Primitive Archer members, my suggestion is to not reply to Jon's post or replies. We all have better things to do than to argue with the court jester.
You are right, Cip. He has nothing to add to the Forum but discord and strife. Even an anointing with mullet's holy buffalo whiz can't fix this.
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So has he been banned yet?
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Maybe I can pop the corn after all?
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Cipriano you are spot on!