Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Ghost Knapper on November 23, 2015, 10:10:12 pm
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While the following images are not an written explanation or video of technique(s) that have been posted recently I hope it sheds some light on what we all are passionate about. These images from what I can tell directly relate to other images that have been posted? While technieques throughout these images are different the leather pad, glove, and hammerstones seem to be a recurring theme. Note the size of the hammerstone with the "simple deer tine" as it has been referred to it, as well as the tine size compared to the piece being worked on. Sorry that there are so many images I chose ones I thought went with each other and could be viewed as a progression in this technique. Maybe the hammerstone on stone punch along with the "drift punch" punch techniques merged together to the "simple deer tine"?
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-1%20copy_zpsgzoo3rqw.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-1%20copy_zpsgzoo3rqw.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-3%20copy_zpsteqrdg0f.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-3%20copy_zpsteqrdg0f.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-4%20copy_zps1fv44d1v.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-4%20copy_zps1fv44d1v.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-5%20copy_zps8qyzd0fw.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-5%20copy_zps8qyzd0fw.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-2%20copy_zpsp4djtow4.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-2%20copy_zpsp4djtow4.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-7%20copy_zpsjswklogl.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-7%20copy_zpsjswklogl.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-9%20copy_zpsu2jxvacx.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-9%20copy_zpsu2jxvacx.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-8%20copy_zpscm5pp5i8.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-8%20copy_zpscm5pp5i8.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-12%20copy_zpsnp8deopj.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-12%20copy_zpsnp8deopj.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-13%20copy_zpsvu3eig02.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-13%20copy_zpsvu3eig02.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-16%20copy_zps4jbtpl9v.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-16%20copy_zps4jbtpl9v.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-15%20copy_zps7n3vnq11.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-15%20copy_zps7n3vnq11.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-17%20copy_zpsg4tnvum9.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-17%20copy_zpsg4tnvum9.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-18%20copy_zpspwh7iimx.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-18%20copy_zpspwh7iimx.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-19%20copy_zpsqykv1cac.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-19%20copy_zpsqykv1cac.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-20%20copy_zps0pzsdny7.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-20%20copy_zps0pzsdny7.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-21%20copy_zps9lx0pv3c.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-21%20copy_zps9lx0pv3c.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-24%20copy_zpsdaeis7x4.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-24%20copy_zpsdaeis7x4.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-23%20copy_zpsx3frggyq.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-23%20copy_zpsx3frggyq.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-22%20copy_zps6ekvpywr.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-22%20copy_zps6ekvpywr.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-28%20copy_zpsggvdeahl.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-28%20copy_zpsggvdeahl.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-31%20copy_zpslfqwodjm.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-31%20copy_zpslfqwodjm.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-32%20copy_zpsitim2o0b.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-32%20copy_zpsitim2o0b.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-33%20copy_zpslbh1pkwq.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-33%20copy_zpslbh1pkwq.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-35%20copy_zpsmidxhovp.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-35%20copy_zpsmidxhovp.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-34%20copy_zpsymd7qiee.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-34%20copy_zpsymd7qiee.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-36%20copy_zpsntkfllzx.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-36%20copy_zpsntkfllzx.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-37%20copy_zpspx4uwonj.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-37%20copy_zpspx4uwonj.jpg.html)
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-38_zps6kpf4xn7.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/Untitled-38_zps6kpf4xn7.jpg.html)
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A sharing of knowledge, refreshing. Thanks, G K.
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Very nice post. The info is out there just needed to find it. Has very real possibilities. Larger biface a could be a two man operation.
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Thanks for posting that.
I've tinkered with punches but haven't really got the hang of it yet.
I recall mention of a fourth force in tine based flaking, Is that shown in the pics? What is the fourth force?
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Looks like excessive wear that will prematurely destroy valued tools. If you are constantly altering your tool a consistent and predictable outcome will be difficult to repeatedly accomplish. The wider punch placed higher on the platform is a good idea. The spaced boards are an enlarged version of a knapping pad. The problem here is contact areas should be padded/adjusted to distribute load.
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Photo 9 and 10 show a platform without material above it . Also the hinge on the left and right show punch failure as well as the bottom middle flake hit high on the platform creates a large creator. This is very critical but I want to see most of the flakes with this technique terminating beyond center long before we get to this preform stage.
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Very cool, haven't seen these pics before, that's similar to what I had in my mind he was doing, where did you find them? Either way, I don't see the other thread so I'm guessing things got dramatic while I was at work. I wish he could've done what you just did. I'm sure he has lots to share.
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Good post. The pictures are self-explanatory and I like the way you arranged them. I believe all of these techniques were or could have been used by native peoples. Some of them I have read about in historical accounts or have read about in discussions with other knappers. Regardless of all that, thanks every much for the post. It is always good to be exposed to new or varied ideas that further the science of knapping.
Again, kudos on a great post.
As a side note, I believe that effective thinning rather than outre passe was the overall goal of the paleo indian knappers. They needed thin points to hunt with mere spears. I am sure these methods provided that ability and offered better control over the process once it was mastered. The best method to thin a point is to consistently detach flakes that pass the center of the biface. These techniques seem to point to possible methods of achieving that goal.
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That is a good post., very educational. I use indirect I like the power and accuracy of the method. I'm not big on overshots. They always mess up my symmetry.
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Okay, I guess I'm the dumb kid in the back of the classroom because I don't follow. The series of photos up to the wood punch and mallet appear to just show the same basic "peg" or "vertical" punch system Ben mentioned years ago and it now in use (usually on top of the leg, instead of in the palm) by lots of knappers, with plenty of videos out there about that type of method.
How is the longer, curved tool shown later used? How is it struck? How is the stone held/supported? Ben said this was new method he came up with in the past year, different than what he was doing before.
Again, sorry if I am missing the obvious.
Keith
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Now I get it. Rick B
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Maybe you're the only smart one Keith.....I assumed all were variations on the same basic technique (more or less except for the really large wood peg - that's different in a couple of ways). Apparently that's the point?
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How is the longer, curved tool shown later used? How is it struck? How is the stone held/supported? Ben said this was new method he came up with in the past year, different than what he was doing before.
photos supporting this have not been release by him; and yes, it's different. there is an anvil being used; i believe it's wooden.
based on my knowledge of flint-knapping (which is limited, mind you), i'd guess that this wooden anvil is allowing him to setup a bi-polar impact.
how else do would you get this rectangular flake with no prominent bulbs of percussion without having an opposing force from the opposite direction?
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/Untitled-21%20copy_zps9lx0pv3c.jpg)
note the offset of poles (the notched impact areas (platforms?)): i'm thinking that the relative positioning of these platforms can be used to control the flake path/type; many combinations can be derived from the same setup. the other main variable would be the angle of impact.
at least that is my take on it. and that will be the basis for my upcoming experiments. i just need to create multiple anvils that would allow me to test this. i've even gone as far as imagining a hybrid anvil with a short cylindrical punch that is 'back-stop' positioned into a notched area of the wood. this would give hard-material impact energy on both poles.
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Zoom in on that picture there is actually a very prominent bulb there. Flake originated at the bottom and rises toward the top. The thing I see here is there does not really seem to be much control. That point is nearly destroyed by the flake removal. Could be a lack of mastery of the technique. Something to try.
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^^ i see it now.
i also found the other photos to go with this specific example. you can definitely see the bulb. you can also see both platforms on the reconstruct photo.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/011.jpg)
note the apparent location where the strongest opposing energies meet. the area is chaotic.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/015.jpg)
it makes for a nasty flake edge.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv135/benjamineble/Holy%20Grail%20Outre%20Passe/009.jpg)
The thing I see here is there does not really seem to be much control. That point is nearly destroyed by the flake removal. Could be a lack of mastery of the technique. Something to try.
^^ this. although, it's obviously not something that you'd apply at this late stage of the point.
i would bet that one could learn to control the aggressive nature of this process.
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Here are my thoughts (mainly ramblings)on the pictures. You can click on the image view it in photobucket and zoom in to see each image larger.
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/overview_zps5ywojhtx.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/overview_zps5ywojhtx.jpg.html)
The progression is from the top down
Antler Drift Punch
Key Features: Platform placement, Stone hammer to apply a strike to the punch, steep angle of punch, support against a wall in top right pic (under antler drift punch heading)
Hammerstone on Stone Punch
Key Features: support between legs
1879 Cushing Cylinder Under knee
Key Feature: Support of piece is no longer in hand to allow for both hands to be used to better control the antler punch and hammerstone
Wooden Hammer w/ large "ishi stick"
Key Features: "Drift Punch' is made larger by placing in handle, hammer strike is on side of stick verses the end as done with the drift punch.
All of this somehow merges together to form the thoughts and actions behind the "Tine Based" Flaking
Other things I noticed in one of the antler drift photos you can see support against a wall and in the bottom left Tine based photo the picture is also taken beside a wall and from looking at alot of the pictures they were taken during the process of making the point so it could be inferred that the piece was supported against the wall weather in hand or laying on something as seen in the wooden hammer photos. The glove the wrapped around the biface in the 1879 Cushing photos is also present in the Tine based flaking photos so the piece may have been wrapped in the glove. The bottom right photo showing a broken antler tine shows alot of wear on the side of the tine as if it was struck in the manner as done with the wooden hammer photos and not on the end as done with the drift punches.
Hopefully someone can help wrap their head around all of this and give some more insight on how the progression could of been made and how the "Tine Based Flaking" is being performed. Only the person who has taken these photos knows exactly how it was done, but maybe just maybe we can pull something from these images to learn from and apply to our own knapping bag of tricks.
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What I couldn't figure out is, the last picture on the first page, you would try to thin that much from the center of the preform?
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As soon as Ben mentioned his method, it made me think of the video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3gm79O7vbU
I believe the action is similar which I would say is more of an "assited" pressure" type idea than a punch method. What I have been trying to figure out is how to use a method like that for both general flaking and fluting without the trouble of the clamp. I agree that much of what has been shown of the flaking looks a bit tortured, and I don't understand the point of creating outre passe flakes on such a late stage form, especially when those flakes fall apart such that they cannot be harvested to use as tools, but I am focused on the amount of power being harnassed from a small piece of antler. I see a lot of potential, maybe.
Keith
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Jeeez, Don, are we nit picking over the word, "ancient"? Cleaned up one mess,,, now have to work on another?
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This is not about trying to make overshoots but in learning about a possible method that may have been used to make points in ancient times. Maybe Joel should have put a question mark after the word ancient. I am not interested in wether it can be used to make overshots. It's been proven overshot can easily be done with hammer stone and antler batons. Ancient knappers are humans just like us and if they wanted to make overshots I think they would have done it the easiest way possible. I think Ben's proposed method can be used as a possible method for smaller points but I have trouble seeing it for larger ones.
edited for clarity
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I don't think it was a bipolar strike, I think the bulb you see on the right, is an incipient cone from a previous attempt to remove it from the right side, and it would not go. either way uncontrolled like this it was catastrophic to that point. I do agree with lots of practice I think it could be controlled better.
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^^ that's logical.
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I made a real short punch like most of his and am gonna give this palm punching a whirl this weekend
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^^ in for results.
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DISCLAIMER: 85-90% OF WHAT IS SHOWN IN THE PREVIOUS PHOTOS ON THIS THREAD IS WRONG. IF YOU TRY TO FOLLOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IN THE EARLIER PHOTOS, YOU WILL END UP IN YEARS OF DEAD END EXPERIMENTS.
Then why not correct the record? How does Paleo Planet or Yuku have an obligation to remove the erroneous information but you have no obligation to correct it? How do you not see the hypocrisy in that? As I have already pointed out, the information goes way beyond one online forum and is now in use extensively, at least among "abo" knappers.
Five years ago you were just as passionate, just as sure as you are now. I, along with a lot of knappers followed your lead. Most of us hit the same wall you did and moved on to other experimental lines. You feel no obligation to us? I don't know who it is you are pissed off at, but it isn't me, and it isn't 99% of the guys here trying to figure stuff out and learn from one another. And you wonder why your integrity is called into question?
Keith
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Where did anyone say that any of these methods are equitable? I have to agree with Keith, if correcting the record is of utmost importance then do it and stop blaming others for your short comings.
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AncientTech the photos are not wrong. All of the photos show techniques that may have been historically used. Please refrain from mentioning other sites and percieved wrong doings when it has nothing to do with this site and thread. Also as others have stated this is not a post on one technology being equatable to another. If you have information you would like to share to further the knowledge of tine based flintknapping please do so. All i ask is be specific and to the point.
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LOL :laugh:
Just think of me as three little monkeys. ???
hear see speak no >:D
Zuma
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My first whack at it.
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b604/joelbookhammer/DSCF7346_zpsstgx5zss.jpg) (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/joelbookhammer/media/DSCF7346_zpsstgx5zss.jpg.html)
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Ghost Knapper,
How are you using the tool?
FWIW, I've found that using indirect from the begining is really inefficient. Both straight and horizontal punching works much better for me once I have an established preform, say from a mid-stage preform on. That more or less follows the model laid out by Cushing in The Arrow as well.
Zuma,
No joke, I wish I had your discipline.
Keith
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I just put it on the platform and smacked the end of it. :) The punch was fairly vertical to the platform. I agree with you when it comes to when uses a punch could be beneficial I dont have any preforms right now that I want to experiment on. and possibly have undesired results.
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I was using one the other day in a manner similar to one of Ben's photo's. I started with a obsidian spall, not large maybe 4 inches long. Had fairly square edges and I holding the piece clamping it with my thumb and holding the punch with to of the fingers on the edge opposit my thumb was very difficult. It's near impossible to hold the biface still. We all know that movement causes energy loss and it's near impossible to hold it still. It would be even harder to hold it like a tripod like in the one photo of a Lacandon knapper is. The was using a hammer stone to strike the biface and wondering why don't I just use the hammer stone to do this. Would have been much faster and more efficient. Ancient man was not stupid, they were logical thinkers just like us and Indont think they would have made it more complicated than it has to be. I am beginning to wonder if some of these early pictures weren't along the same lines as the hot rock and cold water flaking method.
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I am beginning to wonder if some of these early pictures weren't along the same lines as the hot rock and cold water flaking method.
Thank you for the laugh, I needed that!
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Zuma,
No joke, I wish I had your discipline.
Keith
LOL I have been more or less censored into it. >:(
Sooner or later if you hang by the camode you will
be peed off or sucked in. >:D