Author Topic: Ancient? Tine based Technnique? (Read 8019 times)

Ghost Knapper · « **Reply #15 on:** November 24, 2015, 08:53:57 pm »

Here are my thoughts (mainly ramblings)on the pictures. You can click on the image view it in photobucket and zoom in to see each image larger.

The progression is from the top down

Antler Drift Punch
Key Features: Platform placement, Stone hammer to apply a strike to the punch, steep angle of punch, support against a wall in top right pic (under antler drift punch heading)

Hammerstone on Stone Punch
Key Features: support between legs

1879 Cushing Cylinder Under knee
Key Feature: Support of piece is no longer in hand to allow for both hands to be used to better control the antler punch and hammerstone

Wooden Hammer w/ large "ishi stick"
Key Features: "Drift Punch' is made larger by placing in handle, hammer strike is on side of stick verses the end as done with the drift punch.

All of this somehow merges together to form the thoughts and actions behind the "Tine Based" Flaking

Other things I noticed in one of the antler drift photos you can see support against a wall and in the bottom left Tine based photo the picture is also taken beside a wall and from looking at alot of the pictures they were taken during the process of making the point so it could be inferred that the piece was supported against the wall weather in hand or laying on something as seen in the wooden hammer photos. The glove the wrapped around the biface in the 1879 Cushing photos is also present in the Tine based flaking photos so the piece may have been wrapped in the glove. The bottom right photo showing a broken antler tine shows alot of wear on the side of the tine as if it was struck in the manner as done with the wooden hammer photos and not on the end as done with the drift punches.

Hopefully someone can help wrap their head around all of this and give some more insight on how the progression could of been made and how the "Tine Based Flaking" is being performed. Only the person who has taken these photos knows exactly how it was done, but maybe just maybe we can pull something from these images to learn from and apply to our own knapping bag of tricks.

Zuma · « **Reply #16 on:** November 24, 2015, 09:39:04 pm »

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mullet · « **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2015, 09:59:57 pm »

What I couldn't figure out is, the last picture on the first page, you would try to thin that much from the center of the preform?

Hummingbird Point · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2015, 10:00:44 pm »

As soon as Ben mentioned his method, it made me think of the video below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3gm79O7vbU

I believe the action is similar which I would say is more of an "assited" pressure" type idea than a punch method. What I have been trying to figure out is how to use a method like that for both general flaking and fluting without the trouble of the clamp. I agree that much of what has been shown of the flaking looks a bit tortured, and I don't understand the point of creating outre passe flakes on such a late stage form, especially when those flakes fall apart such that they cannot be harvested to use as tools, but I am focused on the amount of power being harnassed from a small piece of antler. I see a lot of potential, maybe.

Keith

mullet · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2015, 10:02:21 pm »

Jeeez, Don, are we nit picking over the word, "ancient"? Cleaned up one mess,,, now have to work on another?

Zuma · « **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2015, 11:35:54 pm »

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caveman2533 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2015, 11:56:48 pm »

This is not about trying to make overshoots but in learning about a possible method that may have been used to make points in ancient times. Maybe Joel should have put a question mark after the word ancient. I am not interested in wether it can be used to make overshots. It's been proven overshot can easily be done with hammer stone and antler batons. Ancient knappers are humans just like us and if they wanted to make overshots I think they would have done it the easiest way possible. I think Ben's proposed method can be used as a possible method for smaller points but I have trouble seeing it for larger ones.

edited for clarity

caveman2533 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 25, 2015, 01:24:10 pm »

I don't think it was a bipolar strike, I think the bulb you see on the right, is an incipient cone from a previous attempt to remove it from the right side, and it would not go. either way uncontrolled like this it was catastrophic to that point. I do agree with lots of practice I think it could be controlled better.

le0n · « **Reply #23 on:** November 25, 2015, 04:13:14 pm »

^^ that's logical.

caveman2533 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2015, 07:40:03 pm »

I made a real short punch like most of his and am gonna give this palm punching a whirl this weekend

le0n · « **Reply #25 on:** November 25, 2015, 07:43:09 pm »

^^ in for results.

Hummingbird Point · « **Reply #26 on:** November 27, 2015, 08:50:17 pm »

Quote from: AncientTech on November 27, 2015, 07:16:50 pm

DISCLAIMER: 85-90% OF WHAT IS SHOWN IN THE PREVIOUS PHOTOS ON THIS THREAD IS WRONG. IF YOU TRY TO FOLLOW WHAT YOU ARE SEEING IN THE EARLIER PHOTOS, YOU WILL END UP IN YEARS OF DEAD END EXPERIMENTS.

Then why not correct the record? How does Paleo Planet or Yuku have an obligation to remove the erroneous information but you have no obligation to correct it? How do you not see the hypocrisy in that? As I have already pointed out, the information goes way beyond one online forum and is now in use extensively, at least among "abo" knappers.

Five years ago you were just as passionate, just as sure as you are now. I, along with a lot of knappers followed your lead. Most of us hit the same wall you did and moved on to other experimental lines. You feel no obligation to us? I don't know who it is you are pissed off at, but it isn't me, and it isn't 99% of the guys here trying to figure stuff out and learn from one another. And you wonder why your integrity is called into question?

Keith

caveman2533 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 27, 2015, 10:31:51 pm »

Where did anyone say that any of these methods are equitable? I have to agree with Keith, if correcting the record is of utmost importance then do it and stop blaming others for your short comings.

Ghost Knapper · « **Reply #28 on:** November 28, 2015, 09:58:43 am »

AncientTech the photos are not wrong. All of the photos show techniques that may have been historically used. Please refrain from mentioning other sites and percieved wrong doings when it has nothing to do with this site and thread. Also as others have stated this is not a post on one technology being equatable to another. If you have information you would like to share to further the knowledge of tine based flintknapping please do so. All i ask is be specific and to the point.

Zuma · « **Reply #29 on:** November 28, 2015, 04:12:34 pm »

LOL

Just think of me as three little monkeys.

hear see speak no

Zuma

Primitive Archer