Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Bowyer Wannabe on October 18, 2015, 09:22:38 am
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Hi guys, I don't want to sound like a smart ass with that question, but I am a beginner, so I was just wondering:
When it comes down to board bows, why do people bother searching for perfectly quarter sawn boards, with no run offs on both sides, when they can use just about any plain sawn board, and back it with fiberglass cloth?
I understand that fiberglass backing isn't traditional, but what if one doesn't mind it?
Isn't fiberglass cloth backing the ultimate solution to not having access to quality wood? Or am I missing something here?
Maybe a plain sawn board with irregular grain would still lift a splinter, even if it is fiberglass cloth backed?
Help me understand, please.
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This is Primtive Archer and we don't use the F word round these parts. If using glass is an option for you, there are other places the get the advice you seek. Here, you could get advice on using sinew or raw hide as a backing, but not glass. You are correct, it is just not what the focus of this site is all about.
Russ
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It is true that you could use a glass backing on boards, but that's no fun! Having that threat of breakage looming over you at all times makes you work harder, tiller better, and in the end makes you more satisfied with what you've created.
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Blasphemy! Blasphemy! Blasphemy!!
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Also, and I agree with the above, fiberglass isn't a whole lot of fun, at least for me. I used to build boats, and a famous old time yacht designer once said on looking for the first time inside a fiberglass hull, "It looks like frozen snot."
Also there's the satisfaction of going into the woods and just using something you find there to make a working bow as people have for millenia, rather than running down to the auto parts store and buying a can of stuff and itchy cloth to smear onto a poor example of a board. Why not save the fairly steep cost of the chemicals and put less money toward a good board?
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You just gotta keep in mind the title of the site. We generally keep it to primitive materials, with the exceptions of modern glues and strings. Also, selecting a less than perfectly grained board and backing it with something as bombproof as fiberglass could lead to belly failures and chrysalling.
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Before I joined the internet I used FG on the backs of all my bows. I had no idea how to chase a ring or select a board. I was never so happy as when I learned how to make bows with no fiberglass. I have plenty of modern bows at home. I never shoot them, only wood for me. Besides that if you like the people here then you can't use FG it disqualifies you immediately.
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Lol, I didn't mean to be a blasphemer. I realize that this is Primitive Archer, but I also believe that there are people on the board who have built bows, using non-traditional materials before. My question goes to those people.
Also there's the satisfaction of going into the woods and just using something you find there to make a working bow as people have for millenia, rather than running down to the auto parts store and buying a can of stuff and itchy cloth to smear onto a poor example of a board.
I know what you mean. I have built primitive bows out of staves that I harvested in the woods.
Why not save the fairly steep cost of the chemicals and put less money toward a good board?
Because where I live "good boards" do not exist.
First problem is that the stores only carry conifers. Oak, ash, elm... no body cares to sell these here.
Second, even if you somehow manage to find an oak board, chances are that it will be less than perfect. So I figured I'd just use a shitty oak/ash/elm board (still hard to find) and back it with something.
I like fiberglass cloth because it becomes transparent when impregnated with epoxy, so you can still see the wood underneath. The natural look is not lost.
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The logic of the question is breathtakingly flawed.
It follows, why make a bow when you can buy one?
It's about acquiring skill, understanding the wood, making connection with our ancestors, creation, artistry and simplifying back to basics where we can make and repair our own equipment.
I'm also on an archery forum where many are target archers shooting equipment the don't understand and don't know how to set up... they are striving for better performance by throwing money at the problem... I try and point them towards primitive bows, field shooting and making their own (with limited success ::) )
It's like the old story of the Texan oil billionaire who come across this old guy sitting by the river making a pair of moccasins. He says heck if you got all your family working together in an organised manner making those things, you could set up a business, earn a small fortune, retire and then you could do what you want.
The old boy looks at him and say, yeah, but I'm doing what I want right now....
I despair at your comment "the natural look is not lost". But you know it's not natural... it's about being true. Heck why not just buy a bow and say you made it?
Del
Sorry if I sound harsh, but it took me best part of 20 years to find a Yew stave to make my first decent ELB. The effort brings it's own reward.
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Truly the bottom line is, you should do what you want. Just as that is true for others who prefer not to use fiberglass. So what is the dilemma?
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Truly the bottom line is, you should do what you want. Just as that is true for others who prefer not to use fiberglass. So what is the dilemma?
There is no dilemma, really. I was just asking a question and it goes like this: will backing make a crappy board usable?
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Ahh. Different question altogether. You would need to have the skill to determine what crappy means in specifics, and the skill to use fiberglass in a way that would resolve the crappiness specifics. Help there would come from people skilled in that art.
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I was just asking a question and it goes like this: will backing make a crappy board usable?
^^ regarding this,
Also, selecting a less than perfectly grained board and backing it with something as bombproof as fiberglass could lead to belly failures and chrysalling.
the answer was already stated.
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Where do you live?
Del
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There are few places in the world where there isn't some sort of wood to make a bow with. Using FG to get away with poor bowyery skills is like slapping a band-aid on it and calling it good, there's a bigger problem you need to fix which is finding proper wood.
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I think it's interesting, too that many fine bows here are made of what some might call "crappy" wood -- I've seen standing deadwood, with worm holes, knots, etc. turned into works of art that shoot hard.
So a question to ask yourself is, what does that say about materials vs understanding what they mean in specifics and how to work with them?
Without an understanding of wood, or even fiberglass as a material for that matter, the result will likely be the same no matter where anyone starts using them. Skills must develop to be successful. And that takes learning.
I think you should buy a piece of crappy wood and fiberglass it, to find out what happens, for you specifically. And where you want to go after that experience. What you become interested in. Nobody can tell you that in advance. Nor will you know without doing it.
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A crappy board is a crappy board whether it is backed or not. When building wood bows, boards or tree staves you should get the best piece of wood you can find. Once you learn proper tillering and understand the principles and techniques of building wood bows then you can experiment however you want. Trying to take short cuts isn't going to get you very far. Even with FG bows there is a lot to learn about the engineering and execution of building a FG bow before you can build a decent one.
About 10 years ago, when wood bows really started getting popular a few of the FG builders decided to build backed selfbows with FG backings to reach into that part of the market. They soon found it wasn't a reliable or a viable option because the FG was too strong and unforgiving for the wood bellies, even with the compression strong woods like osage and ipe.
Find the best bow wood you can find (and truly look for it) and build a backed bow or tri-lam bow with a natural backing like hickory, elm, hard maple or bamboo. All make good, natural material backings.
Woven FG cloth and multidirectional FG matting isn't the same as FG used in bow building. Fred Bear and others back in the day found that out and started using unidirectional FG strips for bow backings and later backs and bellies.
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I agree with you PlanB. I am in the search of a (crappy) board now. Believe it or not, it's a challenge to find even a crooked, twisted, full of knots oak board around here. Like I said, no store is selling hardwood. They only carry pine and fir which also forces the local carpenters to work with conifers too.
Regarding understanding of wood, I think I know a thing or two about that - I have worked with hazel and ash saplings before and I have made a few bows that had a decent tiller and shot well.
I chose the board approach because I don't want to wait another year for any freshly cut staves to dry out.
I am all for traditional archery, guys. It is just that I don't mind a little bit of fiberglass here and there.
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Bowyer wannabe, its fine whatever you do, you just can't discuss fiberglass in this forum. It is primitive only. We do allow modern adhesives though so not entirely primitive. The working parts of the bow have to be natural materials or they can't be posted here, plenty of other forums where they are fine to post.
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FG is a traditional bow building material. It has been used since the 1940s. We are building traditional bows but we choose to use as many natural materials as we can to achieve our goals. If you want to use FG in a bow, that is your prerogative. Most of us here on PA choose not to use FG in our bows. We know it is not necessary. Good tillering of appropriate well seasoned wood is the key to building good wood bows.
We hear this same argument/mindset every year and try to explain ourselves so much we(collectively) get a short fuse when the subject comes up. I'll bet a few of our members use the same questions and arguments when they first got started here on PA but learned how much more rewarding it is to do it our way.
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I just like working with wood,, and how beautiful the bows are, and I like to make bows similar to ancient men,, so I dont have time for the more modern material bows,, just like if I was going to make furniture,, I would make wood chairs cause i like wood,, pretty simple,,
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saplings don't need a year to dry, a month is doable if handled right, and you are just looking for something to shoot
there are some very nice ones posted here sometimes, do a search on "sapling" and you might be surprised ;)
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All my saplings/staves are dry within 2 months (some within 1 month), if you rough them out they dry very quickly, roughed out and in a hot car or drying box and you could be good to go in as little as a week or two.
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I don't have a place to cut my own bow wood, so I searched online and found a hardwood lumberyard that is an hour away from me. I buy osage staves on ebay.
IMO backing a crappy board with fiberglass sounds pretty half assed and I wouldn't expect a good bow to be the result. If you want to go the FG route, you can buy a kit for one online. As has been said, this is a wood bow forum and there are other forums out there to discuss FG bows on.
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FG is a traditional bow building material. It has been used since the 1940s. We are building traditional bows but we choose to use as many natural materials as we can to achieve our goals. If you want to use FG in a bow, that is your prerogative. Most of us here on PA choose not to use FG in our bows. We know it is not necessary. Good tillering of appropriate well seasoned wood is the key to building good wood bows.
We hear this same argument/mindset every year and try to explain ourselves so much we(collectively) get a short fuse when the subject comes up. I'll bet a few of our members use the same questions and arguments when they first got started here on PA but learned how much more rewarding it is to do it our way.
I guess it all depends on where you want to put the bead on that traditional line, Pat. I personally don't consider FG traditional
Exactly where do you live Bowyer Wannabe to be in such a poor hardwood location. Up here in Northern Ontario you can buy many hardwoods useful for making bows, you can even buy some of the tropical wood species as flooring boards
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If you just want to make a bow that shoots and don't care about being natural material make a PVC
bow. They shoot surprisingly well, but are all very lame IMO.
If you look a little harder you will find a hardwood dealership near you.
Or share your location, someone here may help you out. Good luck
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Hi, I live in Eastern Europe. I already checked all the places that sell flooring boards - they have only laminated boards that are very short.
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Hi, I live in Eastern Europe. I already checked all the places that sell flooring boards - they have only laminated boards that are very short.
Aren't there trees you can get wood from?
Del
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what part of Europe? little more specific. i have a few friends that live in Switzerland, and they live right dead smack in the woods. also, a good place to find staves is on ebay.. some are a little pricey, but usually already split, and seasoned. No excuse for using boards unless you're doing it for practice. I'm a very GREEN noob at this and from the research i've done already in the last 3 weeks. wood is not hard to get. Ebay has osage orange for sale for 30-45$ USD.
also, i want to say this. while i may not want to make board bows, (i've made one) just to get a hang of it. Don't get discouraged about anything. Learn, Make mistakes, and in the end you'll be better off if you don't give up.. just leave FG alone.. that word makes me want to slap my mama.
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seems like black locust is replanted in some places for firewood? maybe could find a nice piece for reasonable price.
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sounds like where you live is very difficult to get wood,, fiberglass is probably the best way to go for you,,, best to you in your bow building,, :)
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,52048.0.html
Any chance you have privet in your area
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There are plenty of natural backings including sinew, rawhide, linen, silk and burlap from best to least. I would not use sinew on a board. Too much work but it'll get the job done too.
Jawge
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There are plenty of natural backings including sinew, rawhide, linen, silk and burlap from best to least.
Thanks.
What if the board is plain sawn and has run offs in its grain? Would silk backing help such a board bow stay in one piece?
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There are plenty of natural backings including sinew, rawhide, linen, silk and burlap from best to least.
Thanks.
What if the board is plain sawn and has run offs in its grain? Would silk backing help such a board bow stay in one piece?
The silk will likely keep the bow together but it will have a better chance of doing so if you take the edges off the board before applying the silk. That way the back of the bow will work more from the center with little wood working on the edges
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wannabe-
are the run offs what you see in the rings, or are you following along a split in the board?
if the board is plain sawn, it helps to look at the edge rings also.
a photo of the edge and face would help
willie
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It depends on the number of run outs (run ups) per limb.
For a 50-55# bow up to 2 per limb is ok.
For 3-4 per limb then use silk.
Anymore than that then go with linen.
That's a rough guide.
Yes, always round the edges.
There can be no knots in a board no matter how small. It will likely break there.
More on my site.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com/
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^ Thanks, this helps a lot.
I am starting to think that my theory is right and that backing can turn a bad board into a shoot able bow.
OK people, I will use silk or linen and not fiberglass, but I suspect that my board will still be of less than stellar quality. Of course, I have to find it first. Will check at few other places tomorrow.
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I built 2 ash bows of low poundage for my nieces. The staves were not good but survived with a linen backing. Linen is better than silk. Jawge
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^ Thanks, this helps a lot.
I am starting to think that my theory is right and that backing can turn a bad board into a shoot able bow.
OK people, I will use silk or linen and not fiberglass, but I suspect that my board will still be of less than stellar quality. Of course, I have to find it first. Will check at few other places tomorrow.
A bad board is still a bad board. Backing is not the savior of all bows. It can save some, but most of the issues you run into are mistakes by the bowyer himself.
seems like black locust is replanted in some places for firewood? maybe could find a nice piece for reasonable price.
Black Locust is used all over Europe for more than just fire wood. They don't yet have (hopefully never will) Locust Borers, so they can use the wood for furniture more readily.
About boards, I think boards are harder to make bows out of than Staves.
About the use of fiberglass (Spits on the ground), It's a mess. It is a health hazard. It stinks. It is a fire hazard.
It does have its place, but in my opinion it is not here.
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in regards to your original question in the title of this thread...for the same reason i dont have chinese kids build it for me :) Tony