Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DuBois on August 08, 2015, 06:53:17 pm
-
I have often wondered about just how far into a ring someone can scrape without going through it and still be considered "unviolated". I know that I have read about yew having major violations and being just fine, and then on the other hand about being meticulous around osage knots and pins.
So, I am still unsure on this topic. And since I have one with just such a spot now being worked on, it seems time to ask.
Can I delve slightly lower than pristine on an 1/8" osage ring at one small section of, say 1/2" wide by 2 or 3 inches long on a bow back without going through that ring, and be considered intact on that ring or does this mean it is violated, or is it up to personal interpretation?
And either way, wouldn't this still hold up if feathered out right with surrounding area?
Thanks for your time gents,
Doobs
-
Wow........good thought.. now your looking into the details ...I think it does matter , that's why thin ring bows has a tendencies to lift slinters ...But that's JMHO, let's see what some of the others have to say...............
DBar
-
It will not be violated unless you go through to the other side.
I usually leave thin ringed bows a little wider. How wide is it now?
Yew is a different case. Often when the sapwood is reduced rings are violated since they are so thin. I've only made a couple of yew bows.
My site has more.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
Jawge
-
Great thought DuBois, I honestly don't know, I would guess that as long as you don't cut through to the next ring and feather the indentation you should still have a string of continuos fibers and thereby a un violated back.
Be meticulous and careful and I think that bow will turn out just fine. Just my .02 though, and there are a lot of people who know bow making much better than me.
Good luck on your bow!
-
I have seen and made bows of Osage with violated rings. I have also saw bows fail from violated rings. I can't give any definitive scientific answers though. If the ring is intact and not "broken" through it will usually survive. Your mileage may vary ;)
-
JonW,
good point , Mileage may be the issue..... ;)
-
On osage I don't go any deeper than fractions of a millimeter that come off with scraping off the early wood from the ring above it. With hickory and other fat growth ring white woods I scrape them deep enough to clean them up of ridges and things. I will occasionally sane a nick or tool mark out of osage and haven't had any problems doing that. For the record I have often wondered the exact same question and I have been doing this for many years.
-
I like to leave at least 50% of the ring intact. Any more than that and I start to consider going to the next ring
-
50% of how thick of a ring? and what poundage of bow is being made? Just wondering if that makes a differences :-\
DBar
-
Many of the Native American bows found had quite a bit of ring violations and at least they survived. A lot may have to do with the wood used. I've made hickory backed bows with terrible ring violations and none broke. Also, most board bows have grain violations, some break, some don't.
I try my best to get a good, clean back ring when I build a selfbow. If I do violate a ring I'll add super glue around the violation. After sanding I doubt much glue is left but it makes me feel better.
-
One molecule deep is a violation in my book.
-
One molecule deep is a violation in my book.
Really ?........ Pat M ???
DBar.........
-
Dubois, man its been awhile. Hope all is well.
To answer your question, the munite a single strand of fibre is cut on the back it is violated. When making a back you always violate it. The trick is feathering. You feather to distribute stresses evenly. No matter what bow you build you feather it but typically we call it tapering. The further you taper something the further its stresses are distributed and as a result the pounds of stress per square inch of material is reduced. You damage a ring, feather the damage out so it gradually tapers into the area around it. 25 times longer than deep is a good ratio to go by.
-
Good discussion here. Ideally I want a thick back ring with all the tool marks sanded out smooth. But I feel more comfortable shooting a bow with violated rings but with everything sanded down smooth and feathered in rather than a bow with a thick, unviolated ring with scraper marks on it.
-
Good discussion here. Ideally I want a thick back ring with all the tool marks sanded out smooth. But I feel more comfortable shooting a bow with violated rings but with everything sanded down smooth and feathered in rather than a bow with a thick, unviolated ring with scraper marks on it.
And for good reason.
-
One molecule deep is a violation in my book.
Really ?........ Pat M ???
DBar.........
Yep.
-
One molecule deep is a violation in my book.
Really ?........ Pat M ???
DBar.........
Yep.
Agreed 100% ;)
-
Just think about it. What is wood composed of?
Dean Torges book Hunting the Osage Bow has the best description of how to chase a ring that i've read anywhere.
-
Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this.
Hey Kevin ;D Yes it has been a while. Got a little busy and bumpy for a while but all is pretty much well.
Hope you are doing great yourself bud.
Pat M and Mike, I could see how it could be called violated at 1 molecule but then wouldn't all bows be violated once sanded? And, would it mean you would scrap it or back it then?
I am gonna keep going on this bow and just try to feather it as Sleek and Okie said.
Hello again Pat B, and I agree. For some reason super glue has some magical reassuring quality so it's getting a dose of that too.
-
No need to sand the back if the bark is removed properly. When working to a growth ring you can stop with a dusting of the early growth and sand that off without going into the next layer. The point is that it is pretty easy to work a back without slightly gouging it and calling it good.
-
Yep, I do like peeling bark off and have a lot of wood that is un-violated in that manner. That to me seems easy.
Pat, you must have sharper eyes and subtler hands than mine. I guess I am a butcher sometimes >:D I did real good on all of it but had that one moment of not being 100% clear in the lighting or sure of the stroke, and the hands just went ahead and did it before the brain stopped em.
Know what I mean folks?
-
Unless a back is perfectly flat or oval you need to use a scraper along with a draw knife to chase a ring. Once you hit late wood if there is early wood left in grooves you can take it out using a scraper with rounded but sharpened corners on it.
-
If it's a white-wood then using wood right under the bark is the way to go, unless there is some problem with it. I have chased a ring on many Elm and it's not a problem "violating" a ring if the rings are thick enough, as long as at least 50% of the ring is left. With Osage I generally try to just remove the early wood but sometimes when removing a ring with a drawknife you will get some tear-out and as long as there is 50% of the ring left then I don't worry about it.
The thickness of the ring has no bearing on percentage but very thin rings are too sensitive to ring violations.
-
Thanks Marc. I have over 50% left there for sure.
-
No need to sand the back if the bark is removed properly. When working to a growth ring you can stop with a dusting of the early growth and sand that off without going into the next layer. The point is that it is pretty easy to work a back without slightly gouging it and calling it good.
Again 100% agree.
If I gouge a piece of the ring i'm aiming for I give myself a smack on the head and go for the next ring. Like most things with wood bows you can go a bit fuzzy on the edges of 'the rules' but for me a perfect ring on thee back is an absolute necessity before carrying on with the bow. I don't like investing time into something I know isn't 100%.
-
Just wondering how one would know if he/she has gone a little way into a ring but not through completely?
Jawge
-
Obviously early growth is exposed on a completely cut through ring.
-
Im with Marc.
-
Having a full ring is always preferred but sometimes that is not the way it goes and chasing the next ring is not an option. When that is the case then using what is left of the ring will work as long as you don't cut through. Having a full thickness growth ring with some wood species is the only way to go though but not with Elm, Osage, Hickory and perhaps a couple other species. They are strong and/or elastic enough in tension to tolerate this.
-
I sand out and blend slight tear outs on nearly every osage bow I build. Who wants one? :)
-
I sand out and blend slight tear outs on nearly every osage bow I build. Who wants one? :)
Not me..i already got two of those junkers >:D :laugh: there both still in one piece tho ;)
-
I sand out and blend slight tear outs on nearly every osage bow I build. Who wants one? :)
Hell yes man, I'll pay for shipping! ;)
-
One can see a completely cut through ring. That's not a problem even for my old eyes.
But my question was how can he/she see a ring that is halfway through especially when working a wood like osage with really irregular rings that vary in thickness within the same ring in many cases?
Just wondering.
I get to early wood and use a scraper and am happy if I don't cut through. If i do, I go down to the next ring.
Some osage staves have pretty thin rings.
Jawge
-
Hi George,
Yes it would be kinda hard to tell most of the time I guess. I paid close attention as I worked it to a ring and tried to leave the early growth crust in any dips or concavities. It actually took me a while to be sure I had gone a bit deep and after a little closer scrutiny it sure looks like it is a little thin along a spot on the edge. But just a tiny bit thinner at a place where, of all things, there was no dip or character at all ::) ::)
I had wondered this a lot of times but never took the time to ask before. I sure do appreciate the discussion and opinions here. Thanks guys.
-
No it's simple!
Instead of aiming for the actual ring you are going to use as the back, aim for the layer of earlywood above it. I try to chase the earlywood ring and once this ichased you can then go slowly with a razor sharp scraper and remove JUST the earlywood. Never try to get it all in one go and don't be greedy with your tool strokes. As the earlywood is removed you have a prstine back.
As I said earlier I always try to aim for perfection when making bows.....it rarely happens but that's what i'm aiming for. It would be an anathema for me to have the mindset of oh it doesn't matter if I take a gouge out i'll just blend it in. One day that attitude will bite you somewhere >:D
-
No it's simple!
Instead of aiming for the actual ring you are going to use as the back, aim for the layer of earlywood above it. I try to chase the earlywood ring and once this ichased you can then go slowly with a razor sharp scraper and remove JUST the earlywood. Never try to get it all in one go and don't be greedy with your tool strokes. As the earlywood is removed you have a prstine back.
As I said earlier I always try to aim for perfection when making bows.....it rarely happens but that's what i'm aiming for. It would be an anathema for me to have the mindset of oh it doesn't matter if I take a gouge out i'll just blend it in. One day that attitude will bite you somewhere >:D
Have a "Like" :)
Del
-
That would work, mikeswick, though I prefer to clean it up as I go along.
That way I can see the completed ring and follow it around knots, etc.
It is hard for me to identify a bunch of late wood as the ring I want.
Very interesting discussion.
Fun seeing and hearing how others make'em.
Jawge
-
I am with Jawges, clean as I go leaving the knots valleys and such for last, I also go for perfection on the backs ring Mike but rarely ever happens I feel pretty sure , :-\ I have seen no ill effect from it either and have made a few bows. ;) :)
Pappy
-
As clean as possible is always best but as they say S*** happens and when it does it is nice to know that it's not the end of the world
-
Marc and Mark are just lucky. Keep up with your bad habits guys and you'll see one of these days.
-
Some of the Hop Hornbeam and Hickory I have worked will have fissures all over the limb too narrow to get a scraper in. I used to leave the cambium in them but now I just level off the back if I have decent thickness to the rings, never experienced any problems doing that. Osage I go for perfection, as said above I try to avoid taking off any molecules,, doesn't always happen but I try.