Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Jim Davis on February 16, 2015, 01:25:38 pm
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Some things to think about.
First, most of the time when someone posts a photo of a bow at full draw, we ooh and ah about how the tiller is spot on, or how the maker "nailed" the tiller.
A little thought forces me to admit that unless I know how the bow looks unbraced, I really have no idea whether the wood is evenly stressed in the full draw image.
Certainly, if a bow has a kink in it when unbraced but has a smooth curve at full draw, some part of the limb is being stressed more than the rest.
Another thing we seem to do, after assuming that the bow is evenly stressed, is jump on the bandwagon and talk about how perfect the tiller is, even when one limb is clearly bending more at the fade than elsewhere or both limbs are bending too much or too little in some sections. I've compared some of these "perfect" tiller images to an arc or ellipse and sometimes the disparity is very clear, even though the tiller won high praise.
Some of you have said pleasant things about my bows when some of them did not appear to be bending evenly.
I don't think we help each other by calling something perfect when it doesn't appear to be so, and because of my first point, sometimes we don't have enough information anyway.
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Hmm, I think I will continue to praise and encourage when I feel it is necessary. That's just the twisted sorta chap I am.
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yes the full draw photo does not tell the whole story,, as the braced photo is the same,, it may appear off,, but depending on the bow dips a doodles,, may be stressing the bow evenly,, if the bow is not taking any set anywhere in the bow,, and not breaking etc,, and shooting well for the weight and draw,,the tiller if probably pretty good,, after shooting for a year or a lot of arrows,, if still stable, the tiller was good,, but a photo after just being made may not tell that story either,, it is just hard to tell unless you can experience the bow first hand,, and see how the bow is shooting,,, or holding up,, even some of the best bow makers here ,, ,admit some of the best performing bows they have made,, had tiller that did not "look right" :)
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If its asked for, I shoot straight. If its not, I tend to talk about other aspects of the build if I see fit. I don't patronize, never have.
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I would agree that no one benefits in the long run from being stroked with praise if there are glarring areas for improvment, especially on tiller. On the other hand, being overly critical is probabley not very helpful either. I'm probabley close to Chris in how I respond to people. If I see something that looks off on the tiller and the guy is asking for legit feedback I will give it but if not and they are proudly posting their newest creation and not asking for construcitve criticizm then I probabley just don't say anything at all. That does'nt mean if I don't respond to someones post I think there is something wrong ,I'm just saying. Danny
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When I attended Navy Instructor School, they taught that when doing a student critique or review, always include both positive and negative points. We were taught to first lay out all the positive points with well earned descriptions. We were to follow that up with points that we felt could benefit the outcome. I have used this approach in my civilian jobs and it has worked pretty well.
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Gary, I dont know you personaly so have no idea what your objective is with this post. It seems very much like a rhetorical question designed to illicit heated debate to me. You said all the things that you did to satisfy yourself that some tillers are bad, are you proposing that all posted bows be photographed a certain way, or not posted at all, or maybe there should be no reviews except critical?
I'm like Stringman in that I feel some encouragement is a better teaching tool than harsh, curt, and over critical criteques. If ya cant say something positive then why comment at all? I guess what I'm getting at is you can teach with encouragement, or a iron fist, both work but one far better than the other.
Anyway, I intend to encourage when ever I feel it's needed and/or warranted. If it ever gets to the point that people quit posting bows on account of being discouraged your site will be the worse for it. I do not consider some positive suggestions/ feed-back to be at all patronizing or detrimental.
one old mans opinion
Rich Rousseau
half-eye
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Jim, tillering for perfect illers has never been one of my strong points. I lack that artist eye it sometimes takes. Funny thing is that when I see a photo of a bow I can see it better than I do on my tiler tree. About 2 years ago I was making several bows for people I wanted to be more bullet proof. I was careful to try and get a perfect tiller and get more limb bending just for safety sake. I even used the tillering gizmo to make sure they were even. Funny thing was they all came out with a bit more handshock than I like and not as snappy as what I was used to. I went back to just tillering by feel and not always looking perfect and it seems to work for me. Anytime I try to copy someone elses building style I have a similar result. I have no logical theories as to why.
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The quality of the work here has gone much higher than it was 10 years ago partly I believe to honest critiquing of bows. If given in the right spirit I think we all know that suggestions are meant to be helpful.
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Not to mention. We ALL know what 280 views and 5 replies means. That says enough to the builder. Been there done that.
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LOL. I think the point of asharrows initial post is that dips, etc. affect tiller images.
Also, the presence of knots, which should not bend quite as much as the rest of the limb, all affect tiller pictures.
So the perfect ellipse or arc of a circle is not always the best tiller for that stave.
When an experienced bowyer presents a bow I assume those decisions have been properly executed.
None of my bows are ever perfect. :)
Jawge
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I tend to go a tad easy on newbies, but I won't shy away from criticism.
I will tend to go by the adage "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say it". On a mediocre bow from a newbie that's a good early effort I will try to praise some detail that is well done.
I will certainly offer criticism when asked, but...
Who of us hasn't come across pictures of one of our earlier bows and thought "the tiller is a bit off on that" ?
Only last week I bumped into one of my old bows... Oooooh it looked bad... but then I flipped it round and it all made sense :laugh: (whew!).
BTW
This thread is really awful >:D ;)
Del
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If you don't tell me it's bad when it is...I'll kick your butt the next time I see ya. :D :D :D ;) ;)
Seriously.....
I usually try to find something nice to say about the piece, or I don't say anything at all. I don't think I'm there yet to be much of a critic to someone I don't know or haven't met.
DBar
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Seriously.....
I usually try to find something nice to say about the piece, or I don't say anything at all. I don't think I'm there yet to be much of a critic to someone I don't know or haven't met.
DBar
[/quote]
What he said.
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Yeah, lot's of times I just don't say anything. Jawge read me right, btw.
Just another angle, if a pilot thinks his landing gear is not down properly and a pilot in another plane comes along side and looks at it, should the second pilot say, "Hey, looking good," if he sees the gear is stuck part way down? That would be encouraging wouldn't it?
By the way, who is Gary?
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Part of the process here is that the new guys comming up start weighing in a little bit by answering questions and critiqueing bows. The guys who have been here longer are reading the posts and if need be will often step in and make a correction here and there. Ihave to go along with Jim and some of the others. Try to awknowedge the good you see but don't shy away from pointing something out you don't agree with. Its all done in good faith.
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Only if he is a new pilot Jim! ;)
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That's a good point Badger.........
This is a forum/discussion place and all in good faith....
Thanks for reminding all of us.. :) ;)
DBar
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I always welcome criticism, positive and otherwise, and I'm still trying for that 'perfect' bow. Sometimes the necessary tiller adjustments seem to go against logic. Here is a little osage bow that draws pretty evenly, but clearly it doesn't start out that way.
Sorry for the double post.
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Sorry Jim, Gary was another Davis of my acquaintence years ago. There is a significant difference between "your gear is up or down" and "your crappy bow bends too much at the fades, too stiff in the middle and it's whip tillered too". If you haven't seen or recognize that criticisim is a matter of characterization and the way it's put forward then you missed my point. Feed-back can be positive or ya can jump off the roof on 'em, there is nothing wrong with giving your opinion in a nice way....put forward as a matter of percieved superiority is wrong no matter how you color it.
rich
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Not to mention. We ALL know what 280 views and 5 replies means. That says enough to the builder. Been there done that.
Hahaha! :-X
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I think some people, especially newer bow makers, will comment on tiller to gain credibility, but are not really sure what decent tiller and design looks like. The ability to 'see' decent tiller takes practice and experience. I still struggle with it.
I've read hundreds of posts of people commenting on 'good' tiller that is clearly not. I make positive comments on what I believe is a well made bow, and generally don't comment on bows that are not. Not always, but mostly. I'm like Pearlie... I'm not willing to sugar coat, but I am willing to be honest. I believe it makes us better bow makers. This is a contentious issue, and one that will raise many issues. I have attenuated my criticisms lately. It requires more energy than I'm willing to offer. Most are right... offer critiques in a positive way, it's better.
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Here's a small bit of advice for bow makers, especially newer bow makers...
If you set out to tiller a specific type of bow, acquire a photo of a well tillered bow of that design, and pin it up beside your tiller tree, and refer to it often throughout the process of building that particular bow. Strive to duplicate what you're looking at.
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As someone who is relatively new, I try to make my own critiques in my head without reading what others have said first. Then, my thoughts are either confirmed or proved wrong by other, more experienced bowyers comments. I usually only make a comment if I'm one of the first few on the thread and there is a very obvious problem. One of the things I see most often, but don't comment on is the difference between how much the bottom limb and top limb are working. Sometimes it's a subtle difference, and other times it can be quite pronounced. This isn't necessarily a problem, but just a difference of tillering preference relating to the positive vs. neutral tiller argument, or the stiffer bottom limb idea or an assymetrical bow layout. On the other hand, it could be a simple matter of canting the bow too much during the FD pic, and giving a skewed perspective.
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I understand what Jim is talking about. What I would add to all this is that if you want a critic on your bow's tiller please include an unbraced profile
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As a new guy, I would much rather be told what is wrong than to have 280 views and 5 comments. I can handle what people say. If I were worried what people were going to say, I wouldn't post about it. I think that us new guys will never get better if those of you who have been doing this a long time don't chime in, us new guys may never get better. I guess if you aren't adult enough to take criticism, then you shouldn't post. But I think that it is only fair to get an honest critique.
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I'm with you Jim, entirely, in fact, coincidentally last weekend I typed out a new thread covering the exact same thing then got pulled away from the computer and never posted it.
I refuse to give any tiller critique whatsoever without an unbraced picture. How can anyone possibly know how a bow's drawn profile should/could look without being familiar with it unbraced? A front profile picture wouldn't hurt either.
I'd guess that I disagree with about 50% of the tillering/timing advice given on the sites I visit.
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Personally I feel that if I post a bow, I am giving consent for both constructive criticism and praise . I am a big boy, and have done alot worse than make a poorly tillered bow. If I wanted only to hear "nice one", I would just show it to my Mom.
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One other thing for me... I'd rather see a plain-Jane, well tillered bow, than a fancied up, poorly tillered bow. All the snake skins, fancy grips and Mammoth ivory tip overlays don't make up for poorly executed tiller.
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Again I don't think that issuing constructive criticism or not is the main thrust of Jim's first post.
But it was a long post and the last sentence was about feedback which is why the thread has morphed into that. LOL.
Which is too bad because he had some good constructive tiller advice in the beginning of his post.
Jawge
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So to try to get back on topic, what dictates a "good" tiller? Is elliptical better than whip tillered? How can we better show what obsticles were part of building a certain bow?
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Guys please correct me if I'm wrong....in trying to answer your first question .... the "final tiller" of a bow whether it's elliptical, oval, whipped or what is determined by the front profile.....but this should be another post. Sorry Jim
DBar
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I'd guess that I disagree with about 50% of the tillering/timing advice given on the sites I visit.
I think there is alot to consider before disagreeing that highly. For example, I am on this site so bleepin' much that not a lot sneaks by me. There are times when a guy starts a help thread. Fixes said bow and starts another that may not include unbraced pics that time around, happens all the time. Another example, there are many, many friends on this site,and others, that share a ton of info outside the forums. Maybe they have inside info others don't. Not saying there isn't plenty of guessing going on as you suggest, but 50% seems awfully high.
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I agree DBar, Most bowyers can tell correct tiller depending on front profile and side profile. And I will continue to compliment them for this...The bowyer will have to be his own final judge after shooting...
Don
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Everybody's eye is different. Some are quite detailed and many things that tell them the story may not be so clear to everybody looking at a pic. I guess in other words, not everybody needs the entire equation to complete the problem. Experience has to count for something.
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Chris you just put in words exactly what I was thinking. Not sure what to THINK about that :o
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The initial question (even looking tiller may not be reflect even strain) is a very important one to me.
Suppose you have a stave reduced to bow proportions, with one limb 2" more reflexed than the other. How should one deal with this? You could steam-bend the other limb to match it, or tiller and bend both limbs so they even out on the tillering tree at each incremental draw length. But in the latter case, the more reflexed limb will have travelled a longer distance, and be strained more.
Pretty often, the more reflexed limb takes a bit of set by the time I'm finished tillering, exactly where the extra reflex was present, and in the end both limbs match.
How do others do this?
Joachim
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Pearly, what Joachim just mentioned is where that '50%' came from... and I thought I was being conservative :)
I'm not talking about only how we get each limb to bend evenly relative to its own unbraced shape, but also about how/if they are balanced relative to each other and the archer's holds at full draw... all part of 'tillering' a bow, imo. That's where I find I part with many folks.
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If ya can't take the heat then stay outta the kitchen!!! :laugh:
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So does bad tiller always look bad >:D
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HERE'S THE TICKET TO TILLERING
GOOOOOOO SLOWWWWWWW
If you have a kink or knot,curve you tiller through it. You do this that stress your talking about is evened out when you tiller through the problems.
After I get what I think is spot on tiller.You've got to put 75,100 arrows throught it.
I'm sure you've all seen places in your bow after you've shot it a month. YOU'LY AFTER A DOZZEN ARROWS OR SO I CAN SEE PLACES WHERE COULD'NT SEE ON THE TREE.
But I can see halfeyes point also.
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"ou have a kink or knot,curve you tiller through it. You do this that stress your talking about is evened out when you tiller through the problems."
Kink or knot: no problem, i get how thats supposed to be done. Still, I dont see how you tiller through an excess of reflex in one limb compared to the other. I interpret this that you tiller relative to how much the limb tip travels from its unbraced position, which gives a pretty uneven tillering profile. But I probably misunderstood you.
Joachim
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@joachim....in your example ya tiller it like you should any other bow...your striving for a balanced draw...if its tilting one way or the other on the tree or in your hand then one limb is stronger than the other and its not evenly strained in both limbs. On the tree the string will also not pull straight down on an unbalanced bow.
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thanks Chris/blackhawk for your input. So basically, you ignore the fact that you have the extra reflex in one limb and just tiller till it looks and feels balanced.
Which is what I've been doing, with the addition (not on purpose) that the extra reflex mostly disappears during tillering.
Joachim
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Throughout the tillering process, even from the beginning before it starts, I strive to keep the limbs even. If I have a stave with one reflexed limb and the other deflexed, I will definitely heat correct one (or both) of the limbs before I begin. I'm working on an ash ELB stave at the moment, with one reflexed limb (about 1.5") and the other limb is deflexed with a bump mid-limb. Before I even floor tiller, I'm going to heat correct BOTH limbs, making them more even.
Also, the speed at which you tiller has no effect. As long as your tiller remains even and appropriate, it doesn't matter squat how fast or slow you go. And I've never noticed the tiller changes on any of my bows, after a week, a month, or a year. If a bow is stressed and tillered evenly, it will likely stay that way.
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I always tell Pearl Drums his bows suck... :)
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Me too... ;D ;D ;D
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Jealousy is VERY ugly on both of you, you should try another outfit....;)
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Hey Pearly your hair looks nice today !!!!!!
As far as tiller goes beauty is in the eye of the beholder !
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Yup Pearly is a sweetheart:)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_20130502_182849_137.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_20130502_182849_137.jpg.html)
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Heres somethin that will really blow your skirt up.... A stave, say naturally reflexed 3" on one end and naturally deflexed on the other....you put it on your form and reflex with any heat source to make the limbs even out...now consider that the limb that was deflexed, is now reflexed.... That limb is already under more stress(or atleast structually inferior) to the naturally reflexed limb... The belly wood has been stretched and the back has been compressed. The naturally reflexed limb is still in close to its natural state...this makes my head hurt abit, lol.... I guess if i had a point to make it would be that once we have changed the natural shape of the wood were assuming alot more than actually knowing what a good tiller looks like and like what has been said already, depends alot on "feel".... Brian
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Boy that Roy guy sure likes to make a mess of things around here...this is what happens when Roy makes bows...he makes a mess of things....or I think he done pissed himself thru his pants and onto his work bench after pearly sent him a pic of his guns :laugh:
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20130623_144601_596.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/user/blackhawk28/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20130623_144601_596.jpg.html)
I apologize for the further derailment of this thread :laugh:
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If you would have helped instead of grabbing your camera, there wouldn't have been a mess:)
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Whudya do Roy, bake one of yer catfish in yer bow oven?
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Nope, wuz cleaning one of my rasps in vinegar, and the damn coors light kicked the jug over and blackybird was no help:)
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Thanks for all the cogitation about tillering. You guys (haven't lived in KY long enough to be comfortable saying y'all) have brought up lots of puzzles that have tired out my brain a few times--like the one-limb-reflexed while the other is naturally deflexed.
And, wow, some of youse (I never lived in Joisie, but I'll use youse to try to be funny) even apologized for drifting off topic and I never even complained. What rank civility!
;)
Jim
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To the best of your knowledge did the native Indians tiller their bows using tillering sticks?
My guess is one guy braced it and another guy marked where to remove the wood from.
We could do that here but the tillering process would take a long time and it would not really be an individual effort unless someone wanted it to be.
Whenever someone comments on a bow it is I hope done based on the premise that we are all in this together, I hope....
I know some guys do this for a living and maybe are more experienced and more critical but to me the less clinical and standardized the process the better.
I like the real wood bows and only hand tools (no primitive tools yet). But I accept that to each their own, just like personalities
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To the best of your knowledge did the native Indians tiller their bows using tillering sticks?
My guess is one guy braced it and another guy marked where to remove the wood from.
We could do that here but the tillering process would take a long time and it would not really be an individual effort unless someone wanted it to be.
Whenever someone comments on a bow it is I hope done based on the premise that we are all in this together, I hope....
I know some guys do this for a living and maybe are more experienced and more critical but to me the less clinical and standardized the process the better.
I like the real wood bows and only hand tools (no primitive tools yet). But I accept that to each their own, just like personalities
When experienced you can tiller a D bow simply by the braced shape
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I think there's some good info here...somewhere...
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d bows are great like that