Good tiller doesn't always look good

[Jim Davis]

Some things to think about.

First, most of the time when someone posts a photo of a bow at full draw,  we ooh and ah about how the tiller is spot on, or how the maker "nailed" the tiller.

A little thought forces me to admit that unless I know how the bow looks unbraced,  I really have no idea whether the wood is evenly stressed in the full draw image.

Certainly, if a bow has a kink in it when unbraced but has a smooth curve at full draw, some part of the limb is being stressed more than the rest.

Another thing we seem to do, after assuming that the bow is evenly stressed, is jump on the bandwagon and talk about how perfect the tiller is, even when one limb is clearly bending more at the fade than elsewhere or both limbs are bending too much or too little in some sections.  I've compared some of these "perfect" tiller images to an arc or ellipse and sometimes the disparity is very clear, even though the tiller won high praise.

Some of you have said pleasant things about my bows when some of them did not appear to  be bending evenly.

I don't think we help each other by calling something perfect when it doesn't appear to be so, and because of my first point, sometimes we don't have enough information anyway.

[Stringman]

Hmm, I think I will continue to praise and encourage when I feel it is necessary. That's just the twisted sorta chap I am.

[bradsmith2010]

yes the full draw photo does not tell the whole story,, as the braced photo is the same,, it may appear off,, but depending on the bow dips a doodles,, may be stressing the bow evenly,, if the bow is not taking any set anywhere in the bow,, and not breaking etc,, and shooting well for the weight and draw,,the tiller if probably pretty good,, after shooting for a year or a lot of arrows,, if still stable, the tiller was good,, but a photo after just being made may not tell that story either,, it is just hard to tell unless you can experience the bow first hand,, and see how the bow is shooting,,, or holding up,, even some of the best bow makers here ,, ,admit some of the best performing bows they have made,,  had tiller that did not "look right"

[PEARL DRUMS]

If its asked for, I shoot straight. If its not, I tend to talk about other aspects of the build if I see fit. I don't patronize, never have.

[Sidewinder]

I would agree that no one benefits in the long run from being stroked with praise if there are glarring areas for improvment, especially on tiller. On the other hand, being overly critical is probabley not very helpful either. I'm probabley close to Chris in how I respond to people. If I see something that looks off on the tiller and the guy is asking for legit feedback I will give it but if not and they are proudly posting their newest creation and not asking for construcitve criticizm then I probabley just don't say anything at all.  That does'nt mean if I don't respond to someones post I think there is something wrong ,I'm just saying.  Danny

[StevenT]

When I attended Navy Instructor School, they taught that when doing a student critique or review, always include both positive and negative points. We were taught to first lay out all the positive points with well earned descriptions. We were to follow that up with points that we felt could benefit the outcome. I have used this approach in my civilian jobs and it has worked pretty well.

[half eye]

Gary, I dont know you personaly so have no idea what your objective is with this post. It seems very much like a rhetorical question designed to illicit heated debate to me. You said all the things that you did to satisfy yourself that some tillers are bad, are you proposing that all posted bows be photographed a certain way, or not posted at all, or maybe there should be no reviews except critical?
     I'm like Stringman in that I feel some encouragement is a better teaching tool than harsh, curt, and over critical criteques. If ya cant say something positive then why comment at all? I guess what I'm getting at is you can teach with encouragement, or a iron fist, both work but one far better than the other.
    Anyway, I intend to encourage when ever I feel it's needed and/or warranted. If it ever gets to the point that people quit posting bows on account of being discouraged your site will be the worse for it. I do not consider some positive suggestions/ feed-back to be at all patronizing or detrimental.

one old mans opinion
Rich Rousseau
half-eye

[Badger]

  Jim, tillering for perfect illers has never been one of my strong points. I lack that artist eye it sometimes takes. Funny thing is that when I see a photo of a bow I can see it better than I do on my tiler tree. About 2 years ago I was making several bows for people I wanted to be more bullet proof. I was careful to try and get a perfect tiller and get more limb bending just for safety sake. I even used the tillering gizmo to make sure they were even. Funny thing was they all came out with a bit more handshock than I like and not as snappy as what I was used to. I went back to just tillering by feel and not always looking perfect and it seems to work for me. Anytime I try to copy someone elses building style I have a similar result. I have no logical theories as to why.

[Badger]

  The quality of the work here has gone much higher than it was 10 years ago partly I believe to honest critiquing of bows. If given in the right spirit I think we all know that suggestions are meant to be helpful.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Not to mention. We ALL know what 280 views and 5 replies means. That says enough to the builder. Been there done that.

[George Tsoukalas]

LOL. I think the point of asharrows initial post is that dips, etc. affect tiller images.

Also, the presence of knots, which should not bend quite as much as the rest of the limb, all affect tiller pictures.

So the perfect ellipse or arc of a circle is not always the best tiller for that stave.

When an experienced bowyer presents a bow I assume those decisions have been properly executed.

None of my bows are ever perfect.

Jawge

[Del the cat]

I tend to go a tad easy on newbies, but I won't shy away from criticism.
I will tend to go by the adage "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say it". On a mediocre bow from a newbie that's a good early effort I will try to praise some detail that is well done.
I will certainly offer criticism when asked, but...
Who of us hasn't come across pictures of one of our earlier bows and thought "the tiller is a bit off on that" ?
Only last week I bumped into one of my old bows... Oooooh it looked bad... but then I flipped it round and it all made sense (whew!).
BTW
This thread is really awful 
Del

[Danzn Bar]

If you don't tell me it's bad when it is...I'll kick your butt the next time I see ya.     

Seriously.....
I usually try to find something nice to say about the piece, or I don't say anything at all.  I don't think I'm there yet to be much of a critic to someone I don't know or haven't met.
DBar

[JonW]

Seriously.....
I usually try to find something nice to say about the piece, or I don't say anything at all.  I don't think I'm there yet to be much of a critic to someone I don't know or haven't met.
DBar
[/quote]

What he said.

[Jim Davis]

Yeah, lot's of times I just don't say anything.  Jawge read me right, btw.

Just another angle, if a pilot thinks his landing gear is not down properly and a pilot in another plane comes along side and looks at it, should the second pilot say, "Hey, looking good," if he sees the gear is stuck part way down? That would be encouraging wouldn't it?

By the way,  who is Gary?