Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: JEB on January 11, 2015, 12:32:18 pm
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I heard that the archery club that I have belonged to for 55 years (one of 38 life members) is entertaining the thought of allowing the crossbow into the club. I went to the meeting and voiced my opinion on the matter and asked the board if the vote they are going to take next month does NOT support the crossbow and the majority does not want the crossbow would they honor the result of the vote. The president continually responded by saying, "we will do what is best for the club" I asked for a yes or no answer and he wouldn't give me one.
What a shame.
I don't go out there much anymore, lots of politics going on and I am getting too old for it but the traditional guys told me that they had to threaten legal action when they wanted one night out of seven for a trad only league.
If I am out of line with this post I imagine it will get removed but I was wondering if this has happened at any of the archey clubs that you folks belong to and what steps you took to fight the take over?
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Maybe you should ask when they will start to allow rifles also or maybe even cannons after all they all shoot projectiles.some people just dont understand our love for tradional archery
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Some of the older archers know the archery history in my family but they have all but given up also. The supporters of the xbow don't understand the civil/legal ramifications of xbow if someone gets hurt. Especially if they ignore the majority vote against allowing them.
Its just real discouraging for sure.
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Jon, unfortunately today folks are more interested in results than tradition, scoring the highest score no matter what instead of challenging themselves and using their own abilities to improve their shooting. It's a shame that they can't do things themselves instead of having to use technology to assist them. I'm not against technology but I am against bullies; and that is what these folks are. Forcing their beliefs on everyone else.
I remember when trad became popular again after folks got tired of the compound craze. Now trad is getting to where compounds used to be. I would venture to say that many trad shooters have no idea of the history of archery. When they show off their bows, all they want you to see is the fine wood combos in the risers and the fancy tip overlays they use. I've asked on other sites to see the bow braced, unbraced and at full draw to see the actual workings of the bow and have been completely ignored.
I've come to the conclusion that I will enjoy archery the way it was intended and to hell with the other guys. I'm sorry that they had to screw up your "tradition". I guess that's progress. ???
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I haven't said much on this forum as I thoroughly enjoy the information on all pages and any questions I have are answered. A little history of myself, I started shooting xbow and did a number of 3-D tourneys and was quite good. I then bought a compound and again did 3-D and did well. Now shoot recurve/ trad and do 3-D and again do well in IBO and here in Ontario. I Love the simple bow and arrow part of traditional archery and how there is little mechanical issues involved. I do like the xbow and wheelie bow but first Love is trad. I plan on making my own bow this winter and believe this will be the bow of choice from now on. I like going to the bush/ field and have peace and quiet with the little bit I take in. Bow, arrows and possible bag, no more vests backpack and "everything" you need that the "industry" wants you to buy. I do also Love the slower pace and am trying to slow the pace of life at home to. It is a shame we think we need to go faster whether its in archery, firearms or everyday life. The mighty dollar is usually behind it. Hope things turn for the better
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Exactly what pat said
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I guess it comes with your upbringing. My dad started shooting in the 50's and introduce archery to the rest of the family. I started shooting around 1960 give or take a year. Every weekend we went to an archery tournament during the spring, summer and fall months. Archery back then was a way of life for us.
My wife and are very fortunate to have a son, daughter in law and 6 grandkids that shoot traditional. I don't think in todays world that parents take the time with their kids to teach them the old ways of doing things so that kids can make their own decisions. In todays world its all high speed living with computers and crossbows I guess. I guess this meeting kind of hit me wrong.
It is sad as the new age archer doesn't really know what they are missing. On a side note my son shakes his head when I head to the woods with my osage longbow and stone tipped arrows. He said he was not quite ready for the "stone age".
Thanks all for letting me vent.
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I guess if more money was involved in "primitive archery" we'd all have more clout. As it stands now we are just those other guys.
Oh well, I've been one of them all my life. 8)
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jon
so sorry to hear that the bowmans club may be taking a turn for the worse.
Kevin
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Hate to hear that,seems things are changing in a lot of clubs, it was discussed at TwinOaks once several years ago when they first made X guns legal to hunt with in Tennessee, good thing is, I have veto power and will use it now and then when I see the need. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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I think it takes a different kind of guy to want to do things the hard way. I don't fault people for wanting to take the easy way. I imagine most of us on here have heating and air and drive cars and do a lot of things the easy way. Progress will happen. We tend to look down people who are not like us but primitive archery is a minority. I didn't even know they did archery tournaments for xbows. I would vote against it too but if they bring them in anyway and you still try to stand in the way you may be pushed aside. I don't see the point in taking a vote if they aren't going to honor it.
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JEB,
At our archery club, Hawkeye Bowmen we just had to vote on allowing the cross bow/gun on our property. With the current bylaws they are forbidden and some members wanted to change that. Normally we vote on such issues at a general meeting with just the members in attendance but this was such an important issue we decided to send out voting ballots and give all of the members a chance to vote. The motion to allow them on the club grounds and at our public shoots was defeated by only 4 votes,and the bylaw forbidding them stood.Our club is made up of both compound and traditional shooters in almost equal numbers and most members accepted the vote with no hard feelings, there were some traditional members who voted for the crossbow and some compound shooters who voted against it, but there was sour grapes from only one or two members. The real dissapointment was that only slightly more than half of the members in the club cared enough to vote.
Good luck with your club, a vote would be the only fair thing to do. If the leadership of the club doe's not treat the membership fairly, you could always try to vote them out in the next election of officers.
Kevin
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I have been around this club a long time. I remember the fights against the compound back in the day and now the crossbow. I asked the president what will be next, "the draw lock". Don't think he knew what that was. Sad part is we have 275 members, give or take a few and less than 20 showed up to the meeting.
I think the real reason behind it is that they want a couple of sanctioned shoots at the club to bring in money and the organizations that run the sanction tournaments allow the crossbow. so no cross bow, no shoots, no income.
I tried to tell them that bigger isn't always better. Told my wife that I am about through with the club. I have my own 20 target archery range at our cabin and I shoot in the winter in a church league so I guess that will have to do.
The bad part is we have a beautiful place. 14 target field course, 28 target 2 D course, a PAA course behind the club house and we can shoot 50 yards indoors with the new $250,000.00 addition they just put on. It is really one of the nicest archery clubs around and it is run by 20 people.
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I really feel for you. You can check out my signature and see how I feel about it.
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Check your bylaws, JEB. Do NOT just let the current crop of leadership run roughshod over the club! By knowing the bylaws inside and out, you can create a strategy for dealing with an obstinate President/Board of Directors. Typically, something like this is handled in Robert's Rules of Order. Many states require bylaws of organizations to use Roberts Rules.
Is there anything in the club bylaws limiting what motions may be brought to a vote? Or even when they can be brought to the meetings? Usually this will be in the portion of the meeting under New Business. You would basically stand up and say something to the effect that you are moving that the club limit equipment to primitive, traditional, and compound archery, but specifically excluding crossbows. Once a motion has been brought, it requires a second, opportunity for discussion, and a vote. Someone on the Board of Directors can then call the vote to be tabled until a later meeting. But that is only a delaying tactic, once a motion is called and seconded, eventually it MUST be voted on. Our bylaws require a vote within 12 months of any and all tabled motions, they may NOT languish, or be "hoghoused".
Secondly, find out who your insurance carrier is. Your club must have insurance, and it might NOT cover crossbows, depending on how the policy is written. A phone call to the insurer will answer that question. Our insurance at the Black Hills Raptor Center is written quite narrowly on what it will cover and what it will NOT cover. By writing a very restricted and narrow insurance policy, we cut premiums in half by showing the carrier that we knew what was safe, what was not, and how we could protect ourselves.
Canvas the Board of Directors, what are their opinions on the issue? The president does not dictate the policy....in fact, the president is there only to preside over meetings. He gets one vote as a member. President does not mean Dictator!
Sometimes it is in your favor when the general membership fails to show for a meeting. Allows you to "pack" the vote in your favor! I did this several times with the presidency of our local muzzleloaders club. Also guaranteed I was not re-elected the following year both times, though! But hey, cost of progress!
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Hey all. My wife and I have been trad archers for over 20 yrs and heavily involved in Bow Hunter education, 3 D shoots and have run an archery club for several years. NB has recently allowed xbows in our hunting season and many clubs up here are having the same dilemma. I used to be a trad purist but when my daughter gave me a recurve xbow I learned a few things. Other than a few minor advantages there is not much difference between an xbow and the conventional bow. They can both be as limited as a stick with a string relying on the archers skill and practice or as high tec as the new componds bows /xbows with telescopic range finding sights, shock reducers and stabilizers.
What is important is that we are all archers and should stand together. Having run a club I know that it is true that often it comes down to the all mighty dollar. Rents may need to be paid, insurance, league fees or just maintain club targets and equipment. Some clubs just cant make a go of it being a single discipline group.More members = more operating funds.
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I've been sitting back trying real hard not to reply on this O:) - but I can't take it anymore. Cross things DO NOT belong in Archery seasons - pure and simple. They belong in the Firearm season. Feel the same way concerning Archery clubs. My .02 - Bob.
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Yep,what Bob said. ;) :)
Pappy
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Here in NY they allowed them into the last two weeks of the archery season just this past year,
but you need a muzzleloader tag to hunt with them!
Kevin
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I agree with Bob as well, a modern crossbow is not archery in my opinion and has no place in a primitive weapons season. Here we enjoy a 3 1/2 month ARCHERY deer season and one concern I have is that
one day they will start pecking away days off of our PRIMITIVE weapons season. And as far as allowing them on an archery range, well I feel they should be shot at the gun range. Cocked, locked, stock and trigger is not a bow so lets not pretend it is and allow it to be treated as such. Again JMHO.
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agd68, I respect your opinion but hardly agree that a crossbow is similar to a conventional bow.
Only two things are similar and they are a string and a arrow referred to as a bolt.
Any weapon that has a scope, a trigger, a safety (only in some cases) ,a stock and is shot from the shoulder like a rifle is hardly like archery equipment.
We will see what takes place next month. As JW suggested I am trying to get my hands on the bylaws and constitution to review.
Something that probably bothers me most is that our young are not being taught archery. I am lucky to have gotten my grandkids into traditional shooting.
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Primitve cross bows were not shouldered or scoped just saying
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convert anyone. All archers enjoy their chosen style. Personally I don't like compou'nds, but, I have at least shot them. Have any of you guys ever shot a crossbow. Yes modern cross bows are pretty hitech. Crossbows have been around since the days of the Greek and Roman Empires. I'm pretty sure Julius Caesar's army didn't have telescopic sights. A primitive crossbow with no sights and gizmos is as challenging to master as a bow.
And no, a crossbow is not a gun, nowhere near it. All the gadgets and gizmos don't matter at all. It is the bolt that does the killing and they do it the same way an arrow does. Same limitations as an arrow has too. like them or not is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, just don't hate what you don't understand. If you haven't tried one before try it, you might find they are not the big evil you think they are.
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I have shot them - not impressed at all. Just like compounds, they have brought a certain element to Archery, that I call "Instant Archers" - something I personally think We could have done without. Bob
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convert anyone. All archers enjoy their chosen style. Personally I don't like compounds, but, I have at least shot them. Have any of you guys ever shot a crossbow. Yes modern cross bows are pretty hi tech. Crossbows have been around since the days of the Greek and Roman Empires. I'm pretty sure Julius Caesar's army didn't have telescopic sights. A primitive crossbow with no sights and gizmo's is as challenging to master as a bow.
And no, a crossbow is not a gun, nowhere near it. All the gadgets and gizmo's don't matter at all. It is the bolt that does the killing and they do it the same way an arrow does. Same limitations as an arrow has too. like them or not is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, just don't hate what you don't understand. If you haven't tried one before try it, you might find they are not the big evil you think they are.
Aww, come on. Are you trying to convince me or yourself. I built one in Shop Class in High School before lawyers got popular and have shot quite a few. Even bought my wife a #70 for Christmas I could borrow and carry in my truck at work. It's not a bow,, it's not even close to being a Cross bow. My neighbor got his Doctor to sign off on a Handicap Permit so he could hunt with one in Florida during archery season because he was fat and lazy. After awhile he told me it was so loud he just took a rife in the stand instead. The lease was well off of the road.
I think that's why the majority of the people shoot and hunt with them, they are lazy. And looking for more ways to shoot a deer because they are too lazy to put in the time to scout and learn how to shoot bows, practice shooting bows, and learning how to hunt.
The bolt kills no different then a .22 bullet, you still have to be able to hit what you are shooting at. No different then the short lived arrow with the .357 head on the end. The companies have to keep coming out with new Gadgets every year for all of the lazy hunters. And, that's my 2 cents worth.
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Mullet I am not talking about a modern crossbow, A primitive crossbow without the sights and gadgets. And if you are trying to say a crossbow bolt kills like a bullet you don't know what your talking about.
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This old debate ....again? Lol! I grew up with a guy that was always looking to game the system in some way or another. He shot up with steroids to get the edge in sports. High school sports mind you. He thought up all kinds of imaginative ways to cheat on exams. He would tell girls outrageous lies about their boyfriends to break em up and then slide in to catch em on the rebound. When it came to hunting and fishing he was even worse. One of his favorite tricks was the old arrow down the .410 barrel. He would unabashedly brag about his monster bucks and how long his shots were when he "arrowed" them. Then turn around and defend his unethical behavior with the same rhetoric that is used to defend the use of crossbows today. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with crossbows in general. The only hitch in my giddy up about crossbows is trying to pass them off as the same as archery. If you want to avoid the time and effort of learning how to be an actual archer and use a crossbow, no problem here. Providing that you use it during muzzleloader season. On a side note, I also believe that scopes and inline rifles have no place in muzzleloader season and should only be allowed during the regular firearms season. Folks that seek to cheat with technology are cheating themselves more than anything. I suspect that whatever success they gain by doing things the easy way deteriorate into hollow victories pretty quick. That's no way to build memories. Just my .02
Josh
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Doc, you said it a little better then I did. Adam, I don't know what I'm talking about? When I saw the first crossbow used on a Bow only hunt in 1984 I saw a guy sneak a crossbow in and kill a 200#+ Boar hog at 150 yards with a scope. At that range, he shot it in the ass and the bolt came out it's chin. This hog was over six feet long, do you think one of your Warbows is accurate enough to do that? How many Crossbow shooters do you know that are hunting with primitive, historical accurate crossbows? I bet, maybe 3 out of 3000. If you hit a deer in the heart or lungs I'd pretty much bet it will fall dead. If I could throw a rock hard enough to do it I bet it would work. Like I said, you don't have to try and convince me.
I really liked the laws in Penn when they separated muzzleloading season into two categories, MUZZLELOADING and modern in-line. Personally, I think Crossbows would be okay on private property if you were truly handicapped, management areas I'd say no. Too many people scamming the system to kill their first deer.
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Mullet, You have made the same point I have been trying to make. I agree that a modern crossbow is a technological light year away from a longbow , but then so is a tricked out compound. My opinion has been based on a trad/ primitive recurve crossbow. And yes I know many more people will take a modern one over the practice required to become good with a primitive one, but again the same is true for compound bows. I also agree that the modern crossbow and compounds should not be allowed in a primitive season
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All this hoopla over crossbows got me to thinking today and I couldn't help but laugh. Do you suppose around 30,000 BC a group of Neolithic hunters were sitting around grumping about the fat lazy buggers that were starting to use these little spear launching stick and string things.
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Naaaw, I bet they were too hungry to worry about it. The spear chukkers probably got lazy and let the bow shooters do all of the hunting. :)
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All this hoopla over crossbows got me to thinking today and I couldn't help but laugh. Do you suppose around 30,000 BC a group of Neolithic hunters were sitting around grumping about the fat lazy buggers that were starting to use these little spear launching stick and string things.
Lol! Very doubtful given the difference in circumstances. Those folks very survival depended on their weapons and tools. Any advancement would likely be embraced quickly. Our situation is very different. We don't rely on our bows to survive. Although some are quite proficient at putting meat on the table with sharp sticks, its not our only means of sustenance or defense. What we do is done out of sense of tradition, dare I say pride in having done it the hard way. If it were the same situation as our ancestors, I too would be using the most efficient weapons I could get and it sure wouldn't be a crossbow. It would be a firearm. I have many modern weapons and I have no hesitation to use them when needed to fill the freezer. Oddly enough, my favorite modern rifle is still 105 years old. Lol! The point is archery season is set aside for folks that want to do things in a more challenging way. Not because we have to, but because we want to. When you start incorporating technologies to make it easier, you've lost sight of the whole concept of what archery is about. At least that's the way I see it. Josh
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I guess if more money was involved in "primitive archery" we'd all have more clout. As it stands now we are just those other guys.
Oh well, I've been one of them all my life. 8)
+1! Me too Pat.
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I'm of the belief that the more people involved in hunting the less likely it will be taken away from us. If you made archery season for primitive/traditional bows ONLY like some of you would love to do then you will cut out 97% of the archery population and 99.99% of archery profits. While I can see through my screen at a few of you grinning ear to >:D ear when I say that, I don't think this is a good thing. The antis would outnumber hunters significantly. These "lazy" hunters and their millions/billions of dollars spent are helping to fund the furtherance of our sport. Money talks. I don't like the "if it isn't how I do it then ban it" mentality.
I'm fine with archery season including crossbows. It allows kids and elderly who can't handle a hunting weight bow to get outdoors and enjoy hunting. Everybody doesn't have the time or maybe the skill to become proficient with traditional gear. I could care less if the guy on the property next to me has a crossbow or not. I want everyone to have a good time. Its none of my business what you hunt with.
That being said I understand the OP doesn't want crossbows in his archery club. Fair enough. It is a private club and his vote is just as important as the next guy. That is why they take votes and hopefully the leaders will respect the vote whichever way it goes.
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Mark, I fully understand that there are not enough traditional bowhunters to keep the anti's at bay. Even though compounds are not my thing, I don't believe banning them is in our best interest. In my area, I doubt traditionalists would even constitute one percent of the bowhunters. Compound bows have a lot of technological advantages over the traditional bow, but they still share the basics of archery with traditional equipment. When you add a stock, scope, ability to be locked at full draw and released with a trigger almost every vestige of archery is removed. I don't have any problem with disabled folks using crossbows, providing its a legitimate disability. I don't have a problem with crossbows being used to hunt by any able bodied person either. I just don't want them taking undue advantage of archery season to do so. I know I've gotten away from the range issue for the most part, but this is the main reason for my own personal bias towards trying to include crossbows as legitimate archery gear. I know that I won't change any "all in" type's minds. I'm just trying to explain my own aversion to crossbows being included in my own semi-illiterate way. I sincerely hope the members of the club are respected in this matter. Josh
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I have an old African xbow that was designed to shoot birds and animals out of trees. It is remarkable in its design and as primitive as any of our stick bows. It hangs on my wall and is the subject of much conversation. It does not have a scope, trigger, lazer, or locking device. It would have been a real challenge to shoot a monkey out of a tree with it! I apologize in not being able to post pictures as I am sure you would be impressed with the design. I live on a very large ranch with a river and county road running through it. In the last five or six years since we started seeing xbows here they have become the weapon of choice of the road hunting poachers because of the lack of noise when fired. Its often miles between ranch houses so the poachers drive along the fields and timber and shoot a deer from the road. What has surprised me is that a bolt will pass through a deer and that deer can still make it across the river before it dies. The poachers just let it go! Now we have a griz or wolf bait. Two years ago I found 10 white tail bucks that had been shot by a cross bow and got away to die. Only one had the horns removed and all the meat on those bucks was left to rot. For me its the same old story we have with guns and killers, as xbows seem to attract bad people! So my 2 cents is I place them right along with the 1000 yard shooters as not being "fair chase hunters"! Joe
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Thankfully my club is the exact opposite. We are all traditional or primitive. We have compoinds but the majority is glass recurve shooting aluminums (pretty good for todays club standards) we have been chastized for not joining the national association by some out of town compounders. Says "our problem is we r all rednecks and hippies". Mind you thats true... but we sure have fun! Haha. And frankly the club is run by traditionalists, compounds dont botger to come to meetings, and thats kind of the way we like it. To be totally honest i think we are cliser to allowing atlatls thenwe are to allowing crossbows.
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Man this site amazes me, I have been following this just in case and it is still going and not fights. Yep great bunch of folks , by the way well said Josh my feeling also.Pappy