Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lebhuntfish on May 10, 2014, 01:37:48 am
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I have been working on this maple bow for a while now. Here is the specs, 68"T2T it is made from a maple board. It has a 1" wide handle and is 1/1/2" at the fades. Tapering to 1/2" at the tips. I fliped the tips about 2" and I heat treated the belly. It's also backed with a piece of bleached lennon I found at a thrift store. The handle is off center, 3"below and 1" above the center mark so the left limb is shorter a bit. It's currently pulling 35lbs at 28" I would just like to get the tiller right this time. Any help would be great. I think the left limb is a little stiff near the handle. Currently the limbs measure evenly on both sides. Thanks for your help and advise. Patrick.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1175_zpsgg73qm8u.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1175_zpsgg73qm8u.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1170_zpshww12kej.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1170_zpshww12kej.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1169_zpsbrys9dh2.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1169_zpsbrys9dh2.jpg.html)
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Left side is working harder than the right, by my eyes.
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I agree, and it seems to me the fades could stand to work a little more.
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The left hand limb has two hinges with a stiff spot between them.
Search tillering gizmo and then use it to get the tiller right! They make tillering boards like this a piece of cake.
The problem areas on your bow could be seen with a long string so get it unbraced and back on the long string until the bend is corrected.
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Fish, in the future get the tiller help before you draw the bow as far as you drew it. The damage has allready been done for the most part. Make all your corrections as soon as you can see them. All part of the learning process. By the time you get the limbs evened out you won't have any weight left. I would start a new one.
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Thanks guys, I was afraid of being to light by the time I got it done. But right now he I could get it to bend right that would be awesome.
mikekeswick, I have a tillering gizmo but I have no faith in it. According to it that limb on the left is fine except about 5" near the handle.
Badger, your right I probably shouldn't have been so stubborn and posted pictures sooner. Well lesson learned once again.
I will work on this one till I get it right even if it weighs 10lbs when I'm done. Worst that could happen is that I give it to my neighbors little girl that's 5 years old. Thanks guy's! I appreciate your honesty! Patrick
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I think your plan is a good one. Fix it and get it right. I find that most new bowyers cannot tell you the tiller shape they are after. If you cant see it before hand there is little chance of achieving it later. Badger is right in that you went much to far with too much not right in the tiller. Take a 4 inch straight edge and run it along the belly on each limb. Check the gap as you move it along from handle to tip. It should be a consistently even gap all the way, save for the first inch or so at the handle and where the tip stiffens up. Left limb on yours will show a big gap mid limb, flattening out to near no gap in both directions. That's where your bend is, no where else. Get the rest of the limb (gap) even with the straight edge. The right limb suffers from some of the same issues so ditto the straight edge. When the gap is consistent on both limbs, you will have circular tiller shape. The stiff handle will not be part of the circle, so the handle and fades will be flat, but it should begin bending just past the fade and continue that ark until just before the stiff part of the tip. You wont have any weight left on it at that, but you will have achieved a decent tiller. Study that shape, compare it to like bows on here and see where you can improve a little next go. Shoot for that shape on your next one the minute you begin to cut any wood away. Before you ever start tillering really.
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The bow didn't take too much set, make some minor corrections, possibly shorten it a little bit and shoot it. I will probably shoot fine. I actually like the way bows shoot when they are stiff in the fades.
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Thanks SLIMBOB, that is a really good explanation. You were right about the mid limb part but honestly the rest wasn't very far off. I worked on it a bit this morning before going to cut some Osage. I ended up shooting it and it shot really pretty good. I will work on it some more and see what I come up with. I'm not sure about my weight numbers I posted because when I weighed it this morning it was a lot heavier like 43 lbs at 28".
I will work on it a while and get the tiller right then shorten it up and start another one. It's all about getting your feet wet and learning from your mistakes. Thanks guy's. Patrick
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I'm not saying much other than what the others say is all good. I build mostly Maple right now 1 1/2" wide. One thing I have learned is don't attack the fades much untill it gets bending good enough to get the short string on it. I use to waste time on the long string, but no longer. Get those tips narrowed by tapering the limbs but leave the last 4 inches thick. I find that scraping the belly on board bows and laminates is either nada or very little now. I hope that helps.
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I think I see your tillering gizmo in the first picture, it that is it, it is much too short and won't tell you much or work very well. It need to 1"X 6" to work correctly.
Here is what you need, 6" long.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/newgizmoshape_zps216a4172.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/newgizmoshape_zps216a4172.jpg.html)
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Thank you Eric, that one in your pic is nice. I will make me a new one. But your right that is my tillering gizmo. It is 3/1/4"long I don't remember where I got that measurement from but I remember looking it up on a build along somewhere.
Thanks bow101, I have found that the fades are either hard to get to bend or very easy depending on the wood. Maple is hard and red oak is easy.
I also think part of my problem was the original dimensions I was given for tapering the belly. It had me do the last third from 7/16" to 3/8". I noticed immediately that they were too thin after I cut they of course. I think I would have been better if I would have made a straight taper from 3/4"at the fade to 1/2" thick at the tips then worked it down from there.
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AAAAAHHHHH!! This is now the third board bow I have broken! The first two I couldn't ever figure out why. At least this one I know. It had a hinge from the time I started I guess I wish I could figure out this tiller better. It lifted a splinter right where I marked the X on the belly. I got aggravated and went out it my yard and pulled it until it busted. Then I threw it at my privacy fence believe it or not a broken limb from a piece of maple will stick in a fence pretty good when you have yourself a good ole fit. Then I calmed down and drank an adult beverage and drew out another bow and glued on a riser block.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1188_zps2levjoua.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1188_zps2levjoua.jpg.html)
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Ouch, keep trying you will get it. I broke couple bows in the same spot, but I was pulling over 60# @ 26" ya like pulling well over my intended draw weight of 48# @27" Just go slow and you'll get the feel for it. I took me some time and finally I got much faster at it. Practice that floor tillering. Just do a search. ;)
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Thanks bow I appreciate it. I have been reading and watching videos for quite a while now.
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AAAAAHHHHH!! This is now the third board bow I have broken!
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1188_zps2levjoua.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1188_zps2levjoua.jpg.html)
Don'r feel bad about it, you broke ONLY 3 bows. I broke a lot more before having a shooter, and I still brake. It's part of the proccess. By the way, you might be able to use the riser from that bow to make a take-down. Fiddler94 built one recantly, a very nice one...
Keep up the good work.
Dor
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Thanks I never thought about that. I have 3 to choose from!
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
have you tried this build a long, with these demensions , thickness etc. you should get a shooter, you don't have to use a tablesaw for the thickness cut but these measurements will work
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I think you may be asking too little wood to do too much work. Try 2" out to mid limb and taper from there. Very similar discussion/problem involving a maple board with Victor99 last week. See the thread below.
Best wishes,
Pago
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,46473.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,46473.0.html)
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Thank you Pago, I did see that thread but I didn't follow it all the way. Do you think that 1/5/8"wide on maple board would work for a 35lbs bow?
Thank you to bubby, I will try those dimensions and the build along next time or so. I think my problem it too impatient on the tillering. I feel like I have put so much into a bow that when it bends its time to shoot it. I only worked on the tiller about 2 hours before I shot it. It was actually shooting really sweet at least for the 6 arrows I shot through it.
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remember to round all the edges well
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I'm no expert, I merely rely on the TBB series and what I have gleaned from other people on bowyer forums. I have several bows in various stages but have only completed one. A 55# Mollegabet sort of hybrid (my son holding it below), and we are fortunate it is a good shooter. But two things I am sure of: when in doubt build them longer and wider, reduce the mass at the tips as much as possible. Length and width can compensate for many things to a degree; dry climate, imperfections in the wood, inferior wood, poor design and mistakes by the bowyer. If you really want a shooter, I recommend going conservative and experimenting later on another bow. I would guess that a Maple 66" ntn at 35# should be OK, just be sure the grain and wood fiber orientation is good. I have looked at the maple boards probably ten times but I have a hard time reading the grain/fiber on maple so I have left it alone.
Good luck,
Pago.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3696/13884571491_c12da2f8b2_s.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/n9W4nD)
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If your tillering gizmo doesn't work then as suggested make a better one! Don't give up on them. Once you know how to use one properly you need never mess up another board bow. They make tillering boards like painting by numbers!
As Badger said never ever, never pull a bow past a mistake. Your tiller should be perfection before increasing drawlength an inch.
Good luck on the next one.
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Yes, I agree tillering gizmo is a must!
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Thanks guy's your comments have been a huge help and I plan on doing some revamping on my tillering tool's and set up. Thanks again, Patrick
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I would not heat treat Maple until tillering is almost done. I do my tillering by making long even strokes with a scraper from the handle to the tips in both directions. I try not to use rasps to correct tillering. Too dangerous. If the grain is straight enough, using a block plane is even safer. Just make sure that it makes really thin slivers.
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Thanks SCP, that's a really good tip. If I plan on backing it, should I do it before or after tillering? I only ask because I have seen it both ways with board bows.
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A backing is preferably applied after floor tillering but before final tillering. It also depends on the backing material, though. A hard backing (bamboo, wood) must be applied prior, and sinew also prior to tillering. A decorative backing such as cherry bark, printed fabric or snakeskin can be applied after tillering, since it does not influence the tiller, or adds a lot of protection.
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Really, you want to apply hard backing before you do any kind of tillering as you will be doing your glue-up in a reflex more than likely, you do want equal wood thickness limb to limb. Ideally floor tillering would give you a very even bend for applying backing in a reflex but it is much easier to work with a thicker bow blank than a floor tillered stave. With a slightly oversized stave you have some wiggle room after you apply the backing to trim everything up nice and neat.
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Thanks again guys, you are a lot of help. Never a day goes by that I don't learn something on here. I'm amazed at the wealth of knowledge that is readily available with just a simple question. Thank you, Patrick
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I think you want to get the wood bending some before sinew, you dang sure can't pull it into reflex if you can't bend it
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Yep, sinew is different from hard backings and should be applied after the bow is completely tillered.
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Completely as in full draw?
I prefer to reverse tiller to the degree that the bow will be reverse braced during sinewing.