Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Marc St Louis on April 27, 2014, 04:03:01 pm
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Molecular level :o ? I don't think so. Cellular level yes and the glue line is there, it may be thin but it's still there. Glue does not react the same as wood when compressed, or stretched and that will affect how the wood reacts as well.
A flatbow does not need to have 1 1/2" wide limbs to be a flatbow. A flatbow only means that the limbs are flat, it has no reference to their width. Still you can make them as wide as you want.
Not quite sure where people get this length measurements in relation to draw weight. The length of a bow is directly proportional to draw length, draw weight is irrelevant. That's like saying you are going to make a a 60" bow for a guy that wants a 35# bow with a 32" draw, absurd. You can make a 60" bow pull 100# as long as the draw length matches the length of the bow.
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Yes, with the type of glue I'm using, it occurs at the molecular level. Do your research... I did.
You didn't answer the question about hysteresis.
If I'm making a bow that will be higher draw weight and/or longer draw length, I'll make it longer and/or wider.
I want to see you make a 100# 60" flatbow please. And not one that draws 2". It would have to be of some meaningful use, with a draw length of at least 24"-26". A 60" bow of 50# can easily be pulled to 28".
You threw it out there. Let's see it. I'm challenging you to put your money where your mouth is. And we're talking a flatbow here, not a composite horsebow, static recurve, etc. Backed or unbacked... up to you.
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What do you mean by "molecular level"? What type of glue?
I'm not sure why a 60 inch flatbow with 100 pound draw of reasonable length is unattainable. What exactly is going to happen to prevent that?
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You're welcome to make one too, Pat. Feel free to join the challenge. Talk is cheap. I will gladly congratulate either one of you if you can pull it off.
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Another one? ;)
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You guys all just need to hug it out ;) >:D
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You're welcome to make one too, Pat. Feel free to join the challenge. Talk is cheap. I will gladly congratulate either one of you if you can pull it off.
You need to chill out there Adam before you blow a gasket.
I am thoroughly amazed that you actually think it cannot be done
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This bow is not 100# but it's also a bit less than 60" long so it should at least suggest to you that building a bow 60" long and 100# is well within the realm of the possible. At 55" long this bow is admittedly a bit under built for its draw length of 28" where it pulls 65#, it's also a selfbow
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/Marc-St-Louis/Selfbows/Osage%20Bows/Deflex%20Recurve/Combo.jpg)
As an aside, I was recently asked to build a 65" recurve of 135# on a 32" draw, I did refuse the build but not because it can't be done. I'm just tired of making high draw weight bows and it would be a task.
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are you talkong about a stiff handle here?....with a stiff handle bow thats not so easy to pull off as you might think....100lb bow will be quite thick and inflexible at 60" long, I wouldnt like to make 100 lb bow that short.....50-60lb you still have to get it just right not to get excessevie set....but 100 lbs will be difficult.....
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Nobody said anything about it being easy, someone said it was impossible.
All about good wood selection and execution. A number of years ago I had a 60 inch HHB pulling 100 pounds at 26 inches. It stacked rather abruptly at that length as might be expected and I attempted to put the shortest hooks on the tips to sneak another inch of draw out of it. The steaming did not go well however.
Any bowyer worth their salt could take a flat crowned piece of high quality Elm, HHB or Osage and make a 100 pounder at only 60 inches with a 26 inch draw or slightly more.
Heck, I'll bet adb his pride and joy Ipe recurve that I can do it again. >:D
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OK... I'm waiting. You too Marc. 65# ain't 100#. Until either of you have one to show us. I'll be waiting. No recurves, or statics remember. We're talking a stiff handled flatbow here. 100#@26", 60".
The bow you posted, Marc, isn't even close. Until you guys do this, I'm callin' yah on it.
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You're welcome to make one too, Pat. Feel free to join the challenge. Talk is cheap. I will gladly congratulate either one of you if you can pull it off.
You need to chill out there Adam before you blow a gasket.
I am thoroughly amazed that you actually think it cannot be done
I'm not even close to 'blowing a gasket.' But I am calling you out on your claim. You and PatM have made some pretty bold claims. Prove it. I will gladly eat humble pie if either of you are able.
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Another one? ;)
Pictures please.
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I'll be wanting your recurve. You can't say no.
Why exactly do you think it can't be done? Why would making it a recurve make it "easier".
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Nobody said anything about a bow trade here. What are you offering? I will congratulate you on your achievement if you can pull it off. Remember, it's you guys that said you could do this.
One tiny addendum here gentleman... your bows must last more than a couple of shots.
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Because you called me out and I get to dictate terms. That's how a duel works. ;)
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Well, it's mostly Marc that I'm calling out, but fine. I'll make you one of my static recurves if you can make this bow. You pay shipping if it comes down to it. Agreed?
Just so we're chrystal clear...
60" OAL
100#@26"
Stiff handled flatbow, pyramid style
No: recurves, flipped tips, sinew, statics, composite horsetype bows, or anything else. A flatbow.
Kinda strange you want one of my recurves. I thought yours were top shelf?
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I'll be wanting your recurve. You can't say no.
Why exactly do you think it can't be done? Why would making it a recurve make it "easier".
We weren't talking about recurves. Flatbow. Only.
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Oh, yah... if either of you have a bow to show us, it's specs need to be verified by a third party. Or a youtube video of you drawing this bow on the tiller to 100#@26" so it's clear to see, and more than once. You can easily post a pic of whatever you want, and call it whatever you want. If I'm puttin' up a bow, this will be fair and honest.
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I think I'm on my 3rd bucket of popcorn and looks like I'll be needing another one or two before this ones over :laugh:
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I'm all out blackhawk, need to go to the store for more :D
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are you talkong about a stiff handle here?....with a stiff handle bow thats not so easy to pull off as you might think....100lb bow will be quite thick and inflexible at 60" long, I wouldnt like to make 100 lb bow that short.....50-60lb you still have to get it just right not to get excessevie set....but 100 lbs will be difficult.....
The only thing difficult to do with a build like this is pulling it back. Set is irrelevant, you just account for it.
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Any bowyer worth their salt could take a flat crowned piece of high quality Elm, HHB or Osage and make a 100 pounder at only 60 inches with a 26 inch draw or slightly more.
I was going to say the same thing Pat. The 26" might be pushing it for reliability though
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I think I'm on my 3rd bucket of popcorn and looks like I'll be needing another one or two before this ones over :laugh:
Chris, I've been just reading and waiting to see who flinches first. Those guys must still be snowed in. ;D That white stuff will drive you crazy after awhile. Time to make another bowl. :)
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Honestly Adam I think you need to take a step back and think about this a bit. There is no logical reason such a build cannot be made. If you continue to insist that this cannot be done then I guess you need to get a bit more experience under your belt.
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I don't actually want your bow, but I know you want to try to keep it. ;)
It's on.
Still, could you answer the recurve question? Shouldn't recurving make it more stressed and likely to fail?
ps What is with the pyramid request? A flatbow is ANY kind of flatbow. I'll be deciding that.
pps: It may be that you are saying a flatbow of any style, including a pyramid?
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I was going to try and split this thread because once again we have basically hijacked it but it is quite convoluted. If anyone wants to continue such a discussion then please start another thread.
Sorry about the mess arachnid
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One thing about a heavy bow or a light bow, there is only one correct thickness for any particular style or length, regardless of draw weight. Draw weight should be controlled only by width in the perfect world that I am sure we are all striving for.
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Honestly Adam I think you need to take a step back and think about this a bit. There is no logical reason such a build cannot be made. If you continue to insist that this cannot be done then I guess you need to get a bit more experience under your belt.
Then do it!!! I'm not the one making the bold claims.
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I don't actually want your bow, but I know you want to try to keep it. ;)
It's on.
Still, could you answer the recurve question? Shouldn't recurving make it more stressed and likely to fail?
ps What is with the pyramid request? A flatbow is ANY kind of flatbow. I'll be deciding that.
pps: It may be that you are saying a flatbow of any style, including a pyramid?
What kinda time frame are we looking at here?
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Could you let us know why you think this is impossible? Have you tried doing similar yourself?
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That has nothing to do with it. You made some claims, I called BS, now pony up. How long? A month? I think a month is enough.
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are you talkong about a stiff handle here?....with a stiff handle bow thats not so easy to pull off as you might think....100lb bow will be quite thick and inflexible at 60" long, I wouldnt like to make 100 lb bow that short.....50-60lb you still have to get it just right not to get excessevie set....but 100 lbs will be difficult.....
The only thing difficult to do with a build like this is pulling it back. Set is irrelevant, you just account for it.
Why? You make warbows. 100# should be nuthin' for you on the tiller.
Set is always relevant.
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I think I'm on my 3rd bucket of popcorn and looks like I'll be needing another one or two before this ones over :laugh:
;)
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I don't actually want your bow, but I know you want to try to keep it. ;)
It's on.
Still, could you answer the recurve question? Shouldn't recurving make it more stressed and likely to fail?
ps What is with the pyramid request? A flatbow is ANY kind of flatbow. I'll be deciding that.
pps: It may be that you are saying a flatbow of any style, including a pyramid?
Has to be a flatbow.
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I will volunteer to build a 60" stiff handled recurve 100# drawing 26", if I can find a piece of white oak straight enough and 4" wide, 1 1/2" thick, if not I will do a tri lam. Try to have it by next monday.
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Well, it's mostly Marc that I'm calling out, but fine. I'll make you one of my static recurves if you can make this bow. You pay shipping if it comes down to it. Agreed?
Just so we're chrystal clear...
60" OAL
100#@26"
Stiff handled flatbow, pyramid style
No: recurves, flipped tips, sinew, statics, composite horsetype bows, or anything else. A flatbow.
Kinda strange you want one of my recurves. I thought yours were top shelf?
Agreed?
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I will volunteer to build a 60" stiff handled recurve 100# drawing 26", if I can find a piece of white oak straight enough and 4" wide, 1 1/2" thick, if not I will do a tri lam. Try to have it by next monday.
Has to be a flatbow. No recurves.
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I built a whole stack of 270# to 300# bows a few years ago that were 72" long, recurves were just dummied on them and not doing anything, They ended up taking a lot of set and loosing a lot of power from being way overdrawn but not one of them broke. They were all flat semi pyramids.
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I saw that show on TV. Wasn't that for mythbusters or something similar, or rebuilding history? Didn't all the ones I saw on the show break? Or was that for something else?
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I will volunteer to build a 60" stiff handled recurve 100# drawing 26", if I can find a piece of white oak straight enough and 4" wide, 1 1/2" thick, if not I will do a tri lam. Try to have it by next monday.
This is great, but it's Marc who I'd like to see build this bow.
Don't worry Pat, our bet still stands.
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That wasn't mine. Mine was for discovery channel show called doing Da Vinci. It was for a giant crossbow that looked like a ferris wheel and was operated by a man walking on this giant hampster wheel. The show has not been aired yet but may one day in the future. The 25 footer I built for the catapult was shown.
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Could you let us know why you think this is impossible? Have you tried doing similar yourself?
One thing you may not know Pat is that Adam works for the school board in Alberta and he is starting to think this is his classroom and as such can generate debate with his "students"
Now I said this thread has been highjacked enough. Don't make me start throwing MY weight around here. Start another thread.
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Could you let us know why you think this is impossible? Have you tried doing similar yourself?
One thing you may not know Pat is that Adam works for the school board in Alberta and he is starting to think this is his classroom and as such can generate debate with his "students"
Now I said this thread has been highjacked enough. Don't make me start throwing MY weight around here. Start another thread.
Huh??? I live in Saskatchewan. I'm retired from a career in the medical field.
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Yup... I agree. Should start another thread. Let's call it... The Showdown ;)
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There you go adb.
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Went to the store an bought a whole box of popcorn
And green tea, I'm ready for this pissing contest ;D :laugh:
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Today I might just glue up a thick 62 inch stave....... >:D I'm up for a fun challenge.
Adb - 100 @ 26 flatbow at 60 ntn is definately possible. Of course it is! Width to thickness ratio determines the level of stress. Adjust until it doesn't blow or take excessive set....just like any other bow.
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Well, I'm sure glad I asked my trilam questions. Turned out to be more interesting then an action movie!
I'll be waiting to see these bows.... :P
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Was it 60" ntn or oal?
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60" OAL
100#@26"
Stiff handled flatbow, pyramid style
No: recurves, flipped tips, sinew, statics, composite horsetype bows, or anything else. A flatbow.
This gon be gooood :D
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Is there any reason why this wouldn't be possible with a number of different bow woods? Logic tells me that if you want a 60" stave that pulls 100 lbs in a flat bow you just need to make it suitably wide enough that it doesn't explode or take excessive set.
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Wych elm would be suitable wood. Im sure I could do it, but I have no need to spend my time and energy to prove it....the work involved in reducing and tillering 3" wide flatbow limbs are excessive.
Ill gladly follow the thread tho....if for nothing more, then to feed my "contempt" for the snobbery surrounding the yew Elb's ;)
Cheers
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AROOGAH AROOOGAH... the following is pure lies
I've already done it ::)
It has 30" of deflex, 1" reflex...
Draws 100# at 32" O:)
Rather a high brace and not much cast tho' :laugh:
Del
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Bowmaking 101 tells us that it is totally possible. Someone skipped that class ;)
Hardly a pissing contest, more outright amazement that someone who fancies themselves as pretty knowledgeable would make it seem like someone was claiming they could get to Mars on foot. ;D
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The current world broadhead flight record is held by a 100# hickory, very dry, stiff handled flatbow, it was about 64" long, 2" wide. The shooter was short drawing it a bit. Jeremia Rutherford who pased away a few years ago, way too young. I would have guessed the bow to be about 60# by looking at it.
Marlon Torres AKA "Heavy Bows" owns a 250# 72" long hickory flatbow with stiff handle, it is a beast.
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To be honest I don't even know why this is such a challenge.... ???
Adam do you honestly think it can't be done? Or are you taking a page from my book and goading people into making a bow >:D ya know I've been known to do that ;)..lol :laugh:
100# for a 60" bow? Pfffff....come on...that's not even close to being impossible or too much of a challenge....now make it 200# and now were talking
I'm sure a nice clean straight piece of osage,yew,hickory,elm,or hophornbeam with a nice flat to very low crown at the most can easily handle those stats as a selfbow
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To be honest I don't even know why this is such a challenge.... ???
Adam do you honestly think it can't be done? Or are you taking a page from my book and goading people into making a bow >:D ya know I've been known to do that ;)..lol :laugh:
100# for a 60" bow? Pfffff....come on...that's not even close to being impossible or too much of a challenge....now make it 200# and now were talking
I'm sure a nice clean straight piece of osage,yew,hickory,elm,or hophornbeam with a nice flat to very low crown at the most can easily handle those stats as a selfbow
It took you long enough to chime in. There are many bowyers here that can easily do this and I knew you were one of them.
I would have thought Adam was of that caliber as well but apparently not.
The problem with some people is a lack of imagination and the inability to extrapolate, it would be a shame if Adam was like this.
I'm going to move some of the posts from the other thread so it may get a bit messy here for a bit
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Could you let us know why you think this is impossible? Have you tried doing similar yourself?
One thing you may not know Pat is that Adam works for the school board in Alberta and he is starting to think this is his classroom and as such can generate debate with his "students"
Now I said this thread has been highjacked enough. Don't make me start throwing MY weight around here. Start another thread.
Huh??? I live in Saskatchewan. I'm retired from a career in the medical field.
My mistake. I thought I remembered your e-mail address as ending with edu.ca. Must be thinking of someone else
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I will volunteer to build a 60" stiff handled recurve 100# drawing 26", if I can find a piece of white oak straight enough and 4" wide, 1 1/2" thick, if not I will do a tri lam. Try to have it by next monday.
I don't know why you would want such a big piece of Oak Steve. All you should need for such a bow is at most 2 1/2" wide limbs, and 2" wide limbs with good elastic wood like HHB or Osage.
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By the way, and I'm sure Adam will be terribly disappointed, but I will not be joining this little showdown. My plate is full and I have better things to do.
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I don't blame ya for not Marc....I wouldn't either..I'm not taking the bait....to me it would be a waste of my time,and even more importantly a waste of a really nice stave..as I wouldn't shoot the bow after it was done and it wood just sit n collect dust,and I'd have a hard time finding anyone who would wanna shoot such a bow...talk about uncomfortable.
BUT...I'd sure like to see someone else make one,and can't wait to see one/it cus I know someone around here can pull it off ;D
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Come on Chris put an end to this
Make one and bring it to Marshall we can let the Canadian warbow folks shoot it then raffle it off !
Have fun
Guy
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Blackhawk,
You make the bow and I will gladly shoot it. >:D
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So is the offer open to everyone who makes one gets an adb bbi recurve? If so,I'd like mine to be 50@28" please :P.... Ya know I got a couple distraction free days coming this week of nothing but playing with bows n my buddies down in tennersee ::) ??? I'll have plenty of time to make one,AND in front of lots of credible witnesses :P :laugh:
So what's the "official" rules n guidelines..I see one person saying one thing,and another saying another thing? ???
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I know Pat and Steve can easily do this.
My understanding was 60" long with no mention of draw length but Pat did say 26", which can be done easily enough, but I think a 25" draw would give the bow more durability.
You understand of course that at a 26" draw this bow would be pulling, by extrapolation, something around 140# at 30". That's a handful by any means and you would need a Bear to shoot it.
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By the way, and I'm sure Adam will be terribly disappointed, but I will not be joining this little showdown. My plate is full and I have better things to do.
I'm not surprised Marc. Didn't think you could do it. I don't think it's impossible, never said that. I just don't think you can do it. My only point for this whole exercise is... don't shoot your mouth off, unless you're willing to back it up. My original challenge still exists... to you.
Also, as someone pointed out in a PM, the original claim was you didn't need to go wider than 1.5" at the fades, so I guess that should likely be added to the criteria for design.
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The offer of a static recurve applies to Pat. Only.
Now, I'm done debating. I can't think of anything else to add, so I'll be waiting for Pat or Marc to build this bow. Anyone else is free to do so, but they'll be doing it for their own satisfaction and my admiration. Nothing more. Somebody prove me wrong, please. I'd love to see a 60" 100#@26" flatbow that is no more than 1.5" at the fades.
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I'm not surprised Marc. Didn't think you could do it. I don't think it's impossible, never said that. I just don't think you can do it. My only point for this whole exercise is... don't shoot your mouth off, unless you're willing to back it up. My original challenge still exists... to you.
Also, as someone pointed out in a PM, the original claim was you didn't need to go wider than 1.5" at the fades, so I guess that should likely be added to the criteria for design.
A bit pathetic Adam
P.S. Go back and read the post but the talk of 1.5" in width had to do with backed Ipe
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OK... having given this a tiny bit more thought, how about this? I'll make a backed ipe static recurve for the first person who makes this bow. This is totally letting PatM off the hook. I'm hesitant to do this, but what the heck. He still does have the opportunity to pony up. As long as everyone is OK with that? I think this makes it fair for everyone, and provides equal incentive for all. Time of post will determine who wins. Time limit is 1 month. Winner pays shipping.
Bow specs: 60" OAL, 100#@26", flatbow, stiff handle, 1.5" at the fades, must last more than a few shots. No recurves, statics, horsebows, reflex, etc. It must be a flatbow. It must be verified by youtube video or third party, clearly showing draw weight and length.
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I'm not surprised Marc. Didn't think you could do it. I don't think it's impossible, never said that. I just don't think you can do it. My only point for this whole exercise is... don't shoot your mouth off, unless you're willing to back it up. My original challenge still exists... to you.
Also, as someone pointed out in a PM, the original claim was you didn't need to go wider than 1.5" at the fades, so I guess that should likely be added to the criteria for design.
A bit pathetic Adam
Why pathetic? You made a claim, I asked you to put your money where your mouth is, but you can't, or won't. How is that pathetic? If you're talking pathetic, I think it's pathetic you won't pony up. Maybe you should stop talking and start building?
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I'm not surprised Marc. Didn't think you could do it. I don't think it's impossible, never said that. I just don't think you can do it. My only point for this whole exercise is... don't shoot your mouth off, unless you're willing to back it up. My original challenge still exists... to you.
Also, as someone pointed out in a PM, the original claim was you didn't need to go wider than 1.5" at the fades, so I guess that should likely be added to the criteria for design.
A bit pathetic Adam
P.S. Go back and read the post but the talk of 1.5" in width had to do with backed Ipe
It sure did. So, make your bow out of backed ipe. I don't mind. Your claim didn't specify otherwise.
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Still pathetic.
You should have stayed quiet on this one and played the part that Chris offered you
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Still pathetic.
You should have stayed quiet on this one and played the part that Chris offered you
I should have stayed quiet? Now that's funny coming out of your mouth! ::)
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It gives me a good excuse to build a heavy flight bow for the self bow class, hopefully someone will show up at the flights that is able and willing to shoot it.
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Can you feel the love.... :-*
I just reread this whole thread and the one it originated from...what a mess...lol :laugh:
No where did anyone mention this challenge bow to be a certain width,and no claims were made that it had to be a specified no wider than 1 1/2" wide....Adam at this point your faultering, swayying, and making things up,and changing it as you go imo...and when someone does that it shows me whos right and whos wrong in a debate...
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Did I say anything about 1.5" ? I don't believe I ever said anything about that. Someone else may have as the original discussion diverged but I don't think you should be scrabbling for that.
I really don't want your recurve, I just wanted to see if you were confident enough to put it on the line.
I'd rather see you donate 100 bucks to Sick Kids or something along those lines. O:)
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As an objective onlooker, I have to say adb, it seems like you keep adding extra limits as this goes on. I didn't read the other thread, but I don't think there was mention of 1.5" wide at the fades until the fifth page of this thread. And your pyramid design seemed to come from thin air as well.
I love your work man, but I think you might be putting your foot in your mouth sooner rather than later on this one.
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Still pathetic.
You should have stayed quiet on this one and played the part that Chris offered you
I should have stayed quiet? Now that's funny coming out of your mouth! ::)
???
What I meant is that your starting to make yourself look foolish. I wasn't sure there for awhile if you were actually serious or just trying to generate some excitement on the board. Generating some excitement would be commendable, the other not so much
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I'm standing by what I said. I'm not wavering. Did Marc not say you don't need to go wider than 1.5"? Someone pointed this out to me in a PM. We were talking backed ipe, yes. There was no mention of width, other than that comment. If I'm wrong, that's fine, but I'm not making this easy... it's supposed to be a challenge.
I don't think I look foolish. I'm making a challenge, and putting up an expensive bow for the first person who can pull it off! I think that's fair. Very fair.
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Oh, yah... the clock starts now. It's 9:20 am my time. Tick tock.
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If I were building it from backed ipe I would go about 2 1/4" wide. I think 1 3/4 could work.
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You might want to re-read that post. It says nothing about 1.5 width apart from defining a flatbow as a bow with flat limbs., even if it happens to be narrow. Like saying an ALB is actually a flatbow.
60 inch bow pulling 26" and 100 pounds. That is all. Doesn't matter if it's one inch wide or five inches.
I see you've added no reflex now too? ::)
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If I'm keeping in context to what Marc is saying I see no mention that a 60" bow drawing 100#@26" or whatever inches has to be no wider than 1 1/2" wide....I do believe you are taking him out of context there by a bit..and everyone else can see it but you..why?
Here was the only other mention from Marc that I copied n pasted from the other thread...
Personally I've never found the need to make an Ipe bow any more than 1 1/4" wide even for bows more than 60#. Bows approaching 100# on the other hand would need 1 3/8" to 1 1/2" in width.
"..end quote
Thus is just plain silliness and misunderstanding going on here...
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No ones gonna wanna do this now after you've changed your mind so much BTW...I certainly don't want to now....thought about it,but I'll pass thanks....good luck to anyone who does tho ;)
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I only took Marc's statement about a 60 inch bow being capable of pulling 100 pounds as long as the draw matched the bow length as the defining criteria. I chose 26" inches a good sensible draw length. Most people with experience would likely choose that draw give or take an inch.
That seems totally reasonable to me.
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One thing you can say about this thread. It certainly is a hot topic ;D
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Now if we could just figure out how to use all this traffic to generate PA memberships!! ::)
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Looks like I won't miss much action while at the Classic but I will have lots more pages to read when I get home. ::)
Marc, you will have your hands full while we are gone. ;)
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Adam, could you please stop running off with the goal posts?
60 inch flatbow. Stiff handle, pulling 100 pounds at 26".
Quite simple.
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I'm starting to think it must be second nature for the Queen's subjects to argue in circles. This thread is starting to remind me of some of the senseless arguments on the War Bow forum.
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I'm starting to think it must be second nature for the Queen's subjects to argue in circles. This thread is starting to remind me of some of the senseless arguments on the War Bow forum.
Oh no it doesn't... ::) ;)
Del
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How does religious debate sound now Marc? O:) Kinda the same...you have believers, and non-believers. :laugh: Personally I don't think it would be that hard....and no I am not interested. :)
VMB
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Hey adb......just finished it......if I got the trajectory correct the arrows should be landing in your backyard soon
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So, the glue line will change the hysteresis of the wood? How? The gluing happens at the molecular level. A good glue line really isn't a line at all. Just because two different woods are glued together, doesn't mean the hysteresis of each type of wood will magically change. The entire hysteresis of the total limb may change depending on the combination of woods used. Sounds to me like you're guessing.
Depends on what you mean I guess. A chemical change does occur when you glue something-but only within the glue. The same chemistry happens if you pour your glue on the sidewalk. It is a physical process that you are observing when your glue actually holds two things together.
If you mean that a change at the molecular level is occurring in the substrate, than you are proposing a confused system because your next statement suggests that changes (like hysteresis) do not magically occur in the wood because they are glued together. However, one would exactly expect a change in the physical properties of a substance after undergoing a chemical change!
SOM
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Also, I don't know that hysteresis is an unlikely candidate for energy loss. I think about multiple laminations as having multiple compression and tension surfaces, each with their own neutral plane. Of course any internal tension surface is backed and so supported such that failure at the tension line is unlikely, and similarly the compression face is supported by the next tension surface down. The forces going into each of these laminations, and interacting between them, are just multiple places to lose efficiency when you release the string. Heat loss is a possible energy sink (and yes, I am guessing), but so is reformation of the material surfaces.
SOM
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Wow! :o :o
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Lets post bows.
Knapper
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This stuff is way over my head. All I do is remove wood until I have a bow. Don't ask me why it happens or how it happens, it just happens....usually! ;)
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climb aboard the CRAZY TRAIN!!!!! >:D
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Build bows or crochet!!!!! >:D
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I've been following this one with amusement. I've been making bows for many moons and one thing I noticed in the get-go; there is no shortage of egos in our craft. But I happen to think that is a good thing. It says something about us as a group. We are mostly self starters and diehard individualist. Those qualities, cause us to get crossways at times. It's kind of like sweet and sour sauce!
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I've been following this one with amusement. I've been making bows for many moons and one thing I noticed in the get-go; there is no shortage of egos in our craft. But I happen to think that is a good thing. It says something about us as a group. We are mostly self starters and diehard individualist. Those qualities, cause us to get crossways at times. It's kind of like sweet and sour sauce!
:)
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Ok. I get the message. You guys can make it whatever width you want, within reason. Come on blackhawk, don't back out now! This is just getting good. If anyone can do this, I'd bet it would be you.
Don't start dropping like flies you guys. Come on!
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I was never backing out.
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I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway. The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100# 60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....
then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed
so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.
and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....
Dave
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:( :( :( You guys should be ashamed for acting like kids. This site is to help people like me build better bows. I'm sure you are all very good boywers. Share and learn from each other.
GROW UP!
I just blew up a 64 inch maple backed black walnut bow and had 5 sticthes in my cheek. You guys aren't helping me with this crap!
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Wow! This thread boomed out of no where and right during my busiest week of the semester! Have a week off coming up so if I have the wood to do it I may have to accept this challenge. If I do it with poplar do I get bonus points? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Wow! This thread boomed out of no where and right during my busiest week of the semester! Have a week off coming up so if I have the wood to do it I may have to accept this challenge. If I do it with poplar do I get bonus points? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
yes!! lol do it
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I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway. The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100# 60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....
then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed
so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.
and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....
Dave
Dragon man, the only way to do it is make it wider. The width is really where the draw weight is controlled even if it doesn't seem like it. Every bow has only one correct thickness. We don't always hit that thickness but it doesn't change the fact.
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Dave, The only reason you're not seeing pics yet is because nobody really needs this bow for any practical reason. I can think of a few theoretical hunting situations where it is likely exactly what I would build.
It's pushing the limits of practicality but there is no reason for it to look like more than a stout flatbow if made from the right wood. There is still an optimum that can be reached.
It's nothing like Ryan's Poplar bow for example.
BA, This is precisely about sharing and learning. We're going to share and adb's going to learn. ;)
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My 1st attempt failed, it let go at the handle where the arrow shelf was cut in, I was worried about this from the start. I was at 90# and 25" when it failed so I know I could easily do it. I had a heavy osage bow that was 1 13/16 wide that I cut down for this test. At 2 1/4" wide it would be no problem. I need at least 1 1/2" thick through the handle if I cut out a shelf. Bow had lost only 1" of it's 2" reflex when it failed. Next one I will use a fresh piece of wood instead of cutting a bow down.
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Likely going to join some elm billets that will yield 60 inches exactly.
Hopefully billets are not considered "cheating".
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Likely going to join some elm billets that will yield 60 inches exactly.
Hopefully billets are not considered "cheating".
It's only cheating if you use glue ::)
Del
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I was never backing out.
Atta boy!
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Likely going to join some elm billets that will yield 60 inches exactly.
Hopefully billets are not considered "cheating".
It's only cheating if you use glue ::)
Del
...or a saw! Obsidian flakes only are permitted for cutting in the joint.
OneBow
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All emotions and insults aside, I think this thread is great. No, really. It's generating interest, provoking thought, and pushing boundaries. All things which lead to knowledge. I haven't seen a thread generate this much hoopla in a long time. Lots of people participating, and doing some thinking outside the box. I think that's good! It's also fun!
Beats the hell outta... ''Yah, I made this ash backed ipe flatbow, stiff handle, 45#@27", 66" ntn, and 1/2" of set. I'm really happy." (Nobody get offended... I'm mocking myself). Doesn't that get boring? Does to me. Whether you guys care to admit it or not, I have more than one person on this forum busily trying to make a bow! ;D I love it.
Thanks Dragonman... appreciate your support. I think Marc should pony up too. And it'd be awesome if you guys listened to what he's saying about the width. Just a thought.
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Wow! This thread boomed out of no where and right during my busiest week of the semester! Have a week off coming up so if I have the wood to do it I may have to accept this challenge. If I do it with poplar do I get bonus points? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Hey, Ryan... isn't this great! ;D Kinda like that osage hate thread you started and the poplar bow challenge. I'm lovin' it. Hey, tell you what... if you can pull it off with poplar, I'll mail the bow to you gratis. How does that sound?
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Hey adb......just finished it......if I got the trajectory correct the arrows should be landing in your backyard soon
Made my heart skip a beat for a sec... ;D ;D
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I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway. The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100# 60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....
then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed
so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.
and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....
Dave
I think you're reaching there Dave. Quite frankly I don't recall any boasting. What I did was make a statement of fact, which I made not only from experience but from common sense. At no time did I ever have any intention of making such a bow and I never said I would. Just because Adam wants it doesn't mean we all have to jump to do it. The fact is that Adam wants me to prove to him that I can make such a bow and lets not make any mistakes about this. What he is actually doing is questioning my abilities as a bowyer and he has essentially said as much. The fact is that I have nothing to prove to him and quite frankly he doesn't deserve it anyway. Adam's attitude and approach is full of anger and nothing good will come of that.
Essentially what it boils down to is that if he thinks he can't do it then I guess he can't. I know I can, there would no doubt be some design difficulties to overcome especially around the handle but those wouldn't be of great consequence, all you have to do is make sure your handle is SOLID.
In any case Dave, why don't you point out where I did this boasting? You never know, maybe Alzheimer is finally kicking in :D
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I don't know you heavy flatbow makers out there... what would be a challenging width limitation? 2" max at the fades? Like Dragonman said, it should look like a 'normally proportioned' flatbow. I'm not trying to change the rules, but I do want this to push the ability of everyone who tries it. I'm not pulling my offer either.
I think Steve said 2 1/2" should do it a couple posts back. Can you make it work at 2"?
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I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway. The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100# 60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....
then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed
so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.
and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....
Dave
I think you're reaching there Dave. Quite frankly I don't recall any boasting. What I did was make a statement of fact, which I made not only from experience but from common sense. At no time did I ever have any intention of making such a bow and I never said I would. Just because Adam wants it doesn't mean we all have to jump to do it. The fact is that Adam wants me to prove to him that I can make such a bow and lets not make any mistakes about this. What he is actually doing is questioning my abilities as a bowyer and he has essentially said as much. The fact is that I have nothing to prove to him and quite frankly he doesn't deserve it anyway. Adam's attitude and approach is full of anger and nothing good will come of that.
Essentially what it boils down to is that if he thinks he can't do it then I guess he can't. I know I can, there would no doubt be some design difficulties to overcome especially around the handle but those wouldn't be of great consequence, all you have to do is make sure your handle is SOLID.
In any case Dave, why don't you point out where I did this boasting? You never know, maybe Alzheimer is finally kicking in :D
Marc... you make me laugh. Truly laugh. You keep saying this would be easy, so, once again, all I'm saying is PROVE IT. If not to me, then to yourself and everyone else who's following this. I will be the first person to sincerely congratulate you if you can produce this bow. I'm not being facetious, I mean that.
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Maybe I should get off my a$$ and join this challenge. Can I still join, or is it too late? Save myself a static recurve!
I can't imagine why I'd ever build this bow, but Marc says it's easy... maybe I could even do it! ;D
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By the by... the person that taught me a fair bit about gluing and how that works is PAs very own Justin Snyder. I remember a thread many years ago when I first started doing this, and he mentioned that gluing (with the type of glue I'm using) happens at the molecular level, and he showed me the article in a PM to back that up. Unfortunately, I can't find it, but it was there, in black & white.
I gotta stop now... this is like crack! I need to get some work done.
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Marc... you make me laugh. Truly laugh. You keep saying this would be easy, so, once again, all I'm saying is PROVE IT. If not to me, then to yourself and everyone else who's following this. I will be the first person to sincerely congratulate you if you can produce this bow. I'm not being facetious, I mean that.
You just don't get it Adam. I guess it comes from a lack of experience.
You should do it but if you do then do it with a positive attitude
P.S. Maybe what it is is a lack of experience making bows with wood other than boards
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The woods you are sensibly going to use in selfbow form for this design are not going to even look as odd as a West Coast paddle bow.
It comes down to the wood and how much you want to dance on the line of performance versus durability.
Doesn't make sense to have a definite width challenge unless you want to pick only one kind of wood.
I would say 2 inches for Osage(Osage guru's will likely scoff and say 1.75) and between 2 &1/8 - 2&1/4 for White woods from HHB to Maple.
I will be using Elm for sure.
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I think 2" of HHB would be enough as well Pat. It is an incredibly strong and elastic wood. This bow is 60" long, less than 2" wide and pulls over 70# at 30"
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Adam, The "ease" of making it has to do with just executing another efficient flatbow that happens to be of higher weight.
The part that people are baulking at is sacrificing a perfect stave to make a bow that may be useless to them and anybody else and the broader working surface is more time consuming to work on depending on tool choices and availability.
If someone were to go looking for a tree holding this type of stave it's going to be extra work cutting, splitting etc. unless they happen upon an oval tree.
It's just "more of the same" type of work than degree of difficulty.
None of the above bothers me.
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ok Marc,' boasting ' was maybe too strong a word to use, but claiming to be able to do somethig easily that is dificult, without having done it yet, isnt exactly humble! and should be backed up by proving it, to maintain ones integrity......but I agree its a lot of work and life is busy... no insults intended here.. I respect you and you work, just giving an opinion
and Badger, your right about the width, I wasnt thinking clearly, I have never made a bow over 75# myself....your points on width clarified something I hadnt properly understood , so thanks for that
I agree also about the discussion being a good one,,,,it good to get involved in heated debate, more interesting, than all the regular......"ooh nicebow...lovely bow...well done" stuff....
I for one have learnt something new.....so thanks
Dave
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By the by... the person that taught me a fair bit about gluing and how that works is PAs very own Justin Snyder. I remember a thread many years ago when I first started doing this, and he mentioned that gluing (with the type of glue I'm using) happens at the molecular level, and he showed me the article in a PM to back that up. Unfortunately, I can't find it, but it was there, in black & white.
I gotta stop now... this is like crack! I need to get some work done.
What glue are you using? I would like to look into it if there is another mechanism of action than that which I am familiar with.
The thing is that (with most adhesives, I do not profess to be familiar with all of them) what you said was completely correct. Or way off base. The trick is that a molecular change (chemical reaction) is taking place in the glue, and the glue is different at the end of gluing than at the beginning-usually, a polymer is forming-but the thing being glued is just being anchored there and is the same material before as after for the most part.
The context of the discussion where glue was brought up suggests that a change is occurring to the bulk wood material, which I find unlikely. If the point was just that chemistry is happening than I applaud you and suggest you continue to point that out to people.
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this is getting out of hand. only thing ive seen here is marc having to defend himself from having his bow making skill insulted. and he has a point, he doesnt need to make anything for anyone to prove anything. we all know marc is a great bowyer, so what do you gain by challenging him like this? even if he does decide to do it, your not going to all of a sudden like him again when he is succesful. this is just a childish and personal attack and honestly im amazed this post hasnt been locked yet.
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Adam brought up the glue issue again so I'm going to add what I, let's say, believe.
Modern glues are great for holding 2 or 3 pieces of wood together but most of them need low clamp pressure and some work better if the clamp pressure is almost non-existent, epoxy being one. That means that if your clamp pressure is too high then you will have a starved glue joint and that is not good. Essentially then you will have a thin line of glue holding the 2 pieces of wood together, and perhaps as Adam is suggesting some of this glue goes into the wood on the molecular level. Now the problem with modern glue, because it is a plastic, is that even though it is fairly elasticity, meaning it will stretch or compress quite well, it's return from being deformed by this stretching or compressing is pathetic. Therefore this will affect how the wood springs back when being bent during the draw. The more glue lines you have the more effect it will have on the bow. As I can see it this is why a 2 lam bow will outperform a multi-lam bow every time, as the flightshooting records seems to prove.
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By the by... the person that taught me a fair bit about gluing and how that works is PAs very own Justin Snyder. I remember a thread many years ago when I first started doing this, and he mentioned that gluing (with the type of glue I'm using) happens at the molecular level, and he showed me the article in a PM to back that up. Unfortunately, I can't find it, but it was there, in black & white.
I gotta stop now... this is like crack! I need to get some work done.
What glue are you using? I would like to look into it if there is another mechanism of action than that which I am familiar with.
The thing is that (with most adhesives, I do not profess to be familiar with all of them) what you said was completely correct. Or way off base. The trick is that a molecular change (chemical reaction) is taking place in the glue, and the glue is different at the end of gluing than at the beginning-usually, a polymer is forming-but the thing being glued is just being anchored there and is the same material before as after for the most part.
The context of the discussion where glue was brought up suggests that a change is occurring to the bulk wood material, which I find unlikely. If the point was just that chemistry is happening than I applaud you and suggest you continue to point that out to people.
TB3.
I find it unlikely too.
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I know nobody is realy interested in my opinion, but i'm inspired to give it anyway. The original issue was one of making a normal design bow 100# 60" long .....which is obviously difficult, thats why nobodys shown any pics of one so far.....
then badger or someone chimed in with,just make it wider, and obviously if you go excessively wide you can make a short bow of any weight...but that wasbt the point of the challenge.IMO...and this isnt what a bowyer would normaly make...then it becomes a weird extreme design ......so this is where it changed..its the same as making an excesively long bow to prove a point.....Adb didnt change his mind , the criteria changed
so I'm with Adb on this one...it was originaly a good challenge...but the bow shouldnt lhave excessive width, this doent prove anything.
and ....I'm not impressed with Marcs boasting and insulting and then backing down...this doesnt look good...sorry marc but its true... you said too much to back down... not taking sides here just the way I see it.....
Dave
I think you're reaching there Dave. Quite frankly I don't recall any boasting. What I did was make a statement of fact, which I made not only from experience but from common sense. At no time did I ever have any intention of making such a bow and I never said I would. Just because Adam wants it doesn't mean we all have to jump to do it. The fact is that Adam wants me to prove to him that I can make such a bow and lets not make any mistakes about this. What he is actually doing is questioning my abilities as a bowyer and he has essentially said as much. The fact is that I have nothing to prove to him and quite frankly he doesn't deserve it anyway. Adam's attitude and approach is full of anger and nothing good will come of that.
Essentially what it boils down to is that if he thinks he can't do it then I guess he can't. I know I can, there would no doubt be some design difficulties to overcome especially around the handle but those wouldn't be of great consequence, all you have to do is make sure your handle is SOLID.
In any case Dave, why don't you point out where I did this boasting? You never know, maybe Alzheimer is finally kicking in :D
What you fail to see, Marc, is you've insulted Dave in your own answer. Alzheimer's is a serious and debilitating degenerative disease. Not funny. Certainly nothing to joke about. Several members of my family had Alzheimer's and I find your remake in very bad taste. I can't speak for Dave, but I'd like an apology. Failure to do so will only magnify your arrogance.
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What you fail to see, Marc, is you've insulted Dave in your own answer. Alzheimer's is a serious and debilitating degenerative disease. Not funny. Certainly nothing to joke about. Several members of my family had Alzheimer's and I find your remake in very bad taste. I can't speak for Dave, but I'd like an apology. Failure to do so will only magnify your arrogance.
Wow when you miss the mark you miss it big time. I wasn't saying that Dave has Alzheimers, I was talking about me. Oh and guess what, some of my family had it also. The problem with you is your too full of yourself.
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Adam brought up the glue issue again so I'm going to add what I, let's say, believe.
Modern glues are great for holding 2 or 3 pieces of wood together but most of them need low clamp pressure and some work better if the clamp pressure is almost non-existent, epoxy being one. That means that if your clamp pressure is too high then you will have a starved glue joint and that is not good. Essentially then you will have a thin line of glue holding the 2 pieces of wood together, and perhaps as Adam is suggesting some of this glue goes into the wood on the molecular level. Now the problem with modern glue, because it is a plastic, is that even though it is fairly elasticity, meaning it will stretch or compress quite well, it's return from being deformed by this stretching or compressing is pathetic. Therefore this will affect how the wood springs back when being bent during the draw. The more glue lines you have the more effect it will have on the bow. As I can see it this is why a 2 lam bow will outperform a multi-lam bow every time, as the flightshooting records seems to prove.
There is a certain phenomenon that occurs when a very thin layer of a material is "sandwiched" for lack of a better word between two other materials. The material in the middle actually takes on the physical properties of the materials it sits between. For example if you have two steel blocks that are separated by a layer of copper that is perfectly and rigidly joined you would think that in order to pull them apart, you would need to only reach the yield strength of the copper. but what actually happens is that you need to apply a stress that approaches the yield strength of the steel even though the two steel blocks are only held together by the copper layer. This only occurs if the layer is significantly thin, and if the joining is near perfect.
I know for a fact that this phenomenon occurs with metals under transverse loads, so I wonder if it would possibly apply for a thin layer of glue between two woods? What I don't know is if this happens the same way for bending and shear loads which are far more representative of the conditions of bow laminations, and I also don't know if a glue joint is truly a good model of this situation. Its food for thought though. I'd like to get a materials scientist view on this.
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I think 2" of HHB would be enough as well Pat. It is an incredibly strong and elastic wood. This bow is 60" long, less than 2" wide and pulls over 70# at 30"
It's bendy handle and 70#. At 26" it would be what? 60#. Next.
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What you fail to see, Marc, is you've insulted Dave in your own answer. Alzheimer's is a serious and debilitating degenerative disease. Not funny. Certainly nothing to joke about. Several members of my family had Alzheimer's and I find your remake in very bad taste. I can't speak for Dave, but I'd like an apology. Failure to do so will only magnify your arrogance.
C'mon man, that was petty. It's all well and good to get passionate about what we do, but let's not stoop to that level. This is starting to look more like a youtube comments thread on a Dane Cook video than the Primitive Archer forum.
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Adam you need to realize that human nature allows for black humor. Nobody has to apologize.That's how we deal with our horror for things. Humor makes them seem more normal and harmless.
That's why Michael J Fox can make jokes about his own illness.
You're trying to create fights about everything now.
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I think 2" of HHB would be enough as well Pat. It is an incredibly strong and elastic wood. This bow is 60" long, less than 2" wide and pulls over 70# at 30"
It's bendy handle and 70#. At 26" it would be what? 60#. Next.
Case in point, this. Marc is just showing material properties here. You can learn from this.
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OK, guys. I give up. If you think Alzheimer's is funny, carry on. I don't. I got to see it first hand over 25 years in the medical world. IMO, nothing to joke about, and then justify as a way to deal with daily life. By the way, Michael J Fox has Parkinson's.
When you guys are ready to post some pictures of bows, just let me know. I need to step away from this for a bit. Too much talking and not enough working on bows. Good luck guys! I mean that.
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OK, guys. I give up. If you think Alzheimer's is funny, carry on. I don't. I got to see it first hand over 25 years in the medical world. IMO, nothing to joke about, and then justify as a way to deal with daily life. By the way, Michael J Fox has Parkinson's.
When you guys are ready to post some pictures of bows, just let me know. I need to step away from this for a bit. Too much talking and not enough working on bows. Good luck guys! I mean that.
You have an amazing ability to take things the wrong way. People approach things differently. 25 years in the medical world should tell you that.
Nobody on here is basing a stand up act on unfortunate human circumstances.
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Yaaawn! Do you guys have Medicinal Marijuana in Canada, yet? ??? :-\ This makes me want to jump in and build one but I hate to waste the one nice piece of Elm I have. And anyway, I have enough of James Parker's recurves and horn bows to last me for awhile.
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Geez... :o :o :o I go down into the shop for a couple hours doing finish work on a killa narrow hhb bow and missed two pages...looks like I spent my time wisely,and glad I was working on a bow than reading all that nonsense...some of y'all r on a very slippery slope n crossing lines IMHO ... normally this type of thread would've been pulled by now? Why isn't it?
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Because the whining will just start over again in another thread. This is the second thread, remember? ;) Somebody just build the bow and let's be done with this. Or ten people can build it and wait and post them at the exact, same time and see how many recurves have to be made. :D
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Seems to me,theres been way too much talk allre :laugh:ady
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Adam brought up the glue issue again so I'm going to add what I, let's say, believe.
Modern glues are great for holding 2 or 3 pieces of wood together but most of them need low clamp pressure and some work better if the clamp pressure is almost non-existent, epoxy being one. That means that if your clamp pressure is too high then you will have a starved glue joint and that is not good. Essentially then you will have a thin line of glue holding the 2 pieces of wood together, and perhaps as Adam is suggesting some of this glue goes into the wood on the molecular level. Now the problem with modern glue, because it is a plastic, is that even though it is fairly elasticity, meaning it will stretch or compress quite well, it's return from being deformed by this stretching or compressing is pathetic. Therefore this will affect how the wood springs back when being bent during the draw. The more glue lines you have the more effect it will have on the bow. As I can see it this is why a 2 lam bow will outperform a multi-lam bow every time, as the flightshooting records seems to prove.
There is a certain phenomenon that occurs when a very thin layer of a material is "sandwiched" for lack of a better word between two other materials. The material in the middle actually takes on the physical properties of the materials it sits between. For example if you have two steel blocks that are separated by a layer of copper that is perfectly and rigidly joined you would think that in order to pull them apart, you would need to only reach the yield strength of the copper. but what actually happens is that you need to apply a stress that approaches the yield strength of the steel even though the two steel blocks are only held together by the copper layer. This only occurs if the layer is significantly thin, and if the joining is near perfect.
I know for a fact that this phenomenon occurs with metals under transverse loads, so I wonder if it would possibly apply for a thin layer of glue between two woods? What I don't know is if this happens the same way for bending and shear loads which are far more representative of the conditions of bow laminations, and I also don't know if a glue joint is truly a good model of this situation. Its food for thought though. I'd like to get a materials scientist view on this.
Wow, that is an interesting thing you describe. When separated how do the metals, well, come apart?
Metals are a little squishy when it comes to surface chemistry-they take charges easily, electrons get shuttled all over, and there is the alloying process to deal with. Organic based materials do behave differently. I think it is fair to suggest each glue surface will take on some attributes of the set glue, just not probably any characteristics from the other gluing surface.
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It appears that Mark was talking about himself when he mentioned Alzheimer's. It is possible to read it as referring to Dave if you want to do so. That would say more about the reader than about Mark.
I never make bows heavier than 50# but if someone just post an oak bow 50# heavy and 60" long with a stiff handle and tell us how wide its limbs are, I guess I can make a bow with limbs double wide to meet the challenge. I would split the bow into two 50# ones later on. Better yet, why don't we just tape up two bows 50# heavy and 60" long side by side and declare that the challenge has been met? ;)
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Eddie, don't put all us canucks in the same basket. Some of us are content to just shake our heads and carry on with our day...
I think the possibility of anything positive coming from this thread got lost over 100 posts ago.
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Eddie, don't put all us canucks in the same basket. Some of us are content to just shake our heads and carry on with our day...
I think the possibility of anything positive coming from this thread got lost over 100 posts ago.
;)I agree.
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I really can't imagine why you think this bow can't be built..and a 26" draw is very attaninable I have built several 60" 62" and 64" flat bows that were over 70 pounds at 27" out of Osage that were not over 1.5" wide. 100 pounds is doable the only problem is that not every piece of wood will make a 100 pound bow. You definitely need the right piece of wood and sometimes thats not easy to find.
Jmo
E
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You have 120 new messages
Topic reply: The Showdown
My poor email inbox :P
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Wow. This has been an adventure.
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I did the challenge bow today as per my above post, the bow was 1 13/16 wide and broke at about 25" because I had a cut in handle. I made it from a longer bow I cut down. I also had an extra long handle and fades of 13". I broke at about 90# and 25" so I would have been a fraction light but it wasn't loosing much of its reflex. I will take pics tomorrow sometime. The handle on a 100# bow needs to be a bit thicker to remain rigid it would have worked had I not had an arrow shelf allready cut into it.
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SOMEONE PLEASE FILL ME IN..
Short versions-- what's this thread about?
And what's the issue/problem?
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Steve, I'm like a few other people, I think it is very doable. I don't know what I'd do with it, don't want to waste good wood on a bow I'd never use or give to someone, and mostly, don't see the point unless I'm being paid.
If anybody is going to do it soon, it will be you. Looking forward to seeing it.
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SOMEONE PLEASE FILL ME IN..
Short versions-- what's this thread about?
And what's the issue/problem?
You can't get off that easy, you have to read the whole thing. :D
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Cip.....just some old fashioned sour grapes of somekind...personally....hope this stuff stays far away from PA....kinda disheartening to witness....but i confess....i read every ugly word......like watching a train wreck...well ..almost
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Cip.....just some old fashioned sour grapes of somekind...personally....hope this stuff stays far away from PA....kinda disheartening to witness....but i confess....i read every ugly word......like watching a train wreck...well ..almost
Ha! well said. My sentiments exactly.
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I'm not surprised Steve. Wood is an amazing material and when treated right can do amazing things
It's the same for me Eddie. What do you do with it after plus I have better things to do
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The topic of the thread (60# @ 26" selfbow with given specs) is quite legitimate and interesting, but there was probably (definitely) a much nicer way to go about it I guess.
This could actually make for a cool event, someone issues a challenge and a bow as a prize, then they do a bow swap with whoever manages to make the required bow first to whatever crazy specifications set by the challenger.
People would participate purely for the love of a challenge though, nothing else.
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Bottom line is that Marc has made a name for himself by making high class bows of every sort for at least the last 15 years and Adam thinks he has arrived because he had a couple of laminated light weight recurves hold together. Now he thinks it's time to shoulder Marc aside and make a push for number 1.
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The topic of the thread (60# @ 26" selfbow with given specs) is quite legitimate and interesting, but there was probably (definitely) a much nicer way to go about it I guess.
This could actually make for a cool event, someone issues a challenge and a bow as a prize, then they do a bow swap with whoever manages to make the required bow first to whatever crazy specifications set by the challenger.
People would participate purely for the love of a challenge though, nothing else.
Do it! But whoever challenges should build one first. The thread wouldn't be so long, then.
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Hehe, I'll get back to you when I have a bow that pulls any weight at any drawlength, let's go from there huh ;)
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http://www.straightdope.com/
The best explanation of the glue bond I've seen . We learned about this in college (Cabinetmaking) That was a long time ago ;) had to look for a refresher myself . Of particular interest in this article is that it starts out with" We don't really know". ................................... Science is really a lot of that. It's just not usually admitted. ;)
Another experiment like the 2 pieces of steel with copper in between. Take 2 pieces of glass (clean and flat) and add a drop of water between them. If they are dead flat , you don't even need the water. Try to pull them apart.
As for the rest of this topic, ............ try to keep in the spirit of this forum everybody . I'm not sure why it has been allowed to carry on in this fashion for so long.
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I think this post should be renamed to "primitive drama". Just read most of it and sounds like a cat fight. Now I just want to see the end result....
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The topic of the thread (60# @ 26" selfbow with given specs) is quite legitimate and interesting, but there was probably (definitely) a much nicer way to go about it I guess.
This could actually make for a cool event, someone issues a challenge and a bow as a prize, then they do a bow swap with whoever manages to make the required bow first to whatever crazy specifications set by the challenger.
People would participate purely for the love of a challenge though, nothing else.
Thanks for the explanation guys.
Ok. Let me get this straight as a sidewinder's movement..
11 pages of baby drama based on yes it can! No it can't?!
Is that a correct conclusion??
Cipriano
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I actually like all the "atta boys" and "nice jobs!" Not boring to me. Maybe it's because I still consider myself very new and need all the positive reinforcement I can get. :D I'll admit it I have a very fragile ego. But it is very motivating to me to do the best I can on a bow that I actually might take a picture or two or twelve and post on a site like this. I'll admit I have many that I would be too embarrassed to tell anyone here about. :-[
I have also thouroughly enjoyed reading "poplar" and "osage king" threads and "stave or board" or "backed or unbacked" or "how the heck do I do this" threads and talk about "mass principles" and "side tillering" or "snake skins and fish skins", "deflex reflex or deflex recurve?" and many other "get-you-thinking-asking-questions-motivated-to-try-something-new-threads."
I just sat here and read this entire thread. Was gonna watch TV but got sucked in.
I have to say I have laughed and seriously laughed out loud when Ryoon piped in and have also cringed a little. It does pain me to see two of the guys who I admire most some of the "big guns" bickering about this.
I can put that aside though. Both Adam and Marc are two of the best bowyers on this site in my book. You guys have extreme talent in areas that you have each focused on in your bow making careers. More so than I can imagine. I admire and respect the well earned talent and hope to approach the levels of skill you BOTH have developed. I am constantly amazed at the bows you guys throw up here. And many of the people who have chimed in. Anyway. Both have made good points and I'm sure both have said things that maybe just maybe you will regret later down the road. I could be wrong or very idealistic but I'd rather see you guys having a more productive discussion. You are each kind of ambassadors of what we all love to do. Build bows.
Or you can just fight for another 20 pages or so. >:D
Honestly I sure hope not. I like to go on in life thinking people on this site genuinely get along.
in short. stop fighting. You are both awesome and have much to offer everyone last member on this site. I would count myself very lucky to learn from either one of you and I'm grateful that I have. I am secretly stealing all of your secrets anyway. ;D
What I think I'm really looking forward to is seeing Ryoon post a 100# poplar bow! :o I think he's the kind of guy that against all odds could actually do it.
What about a 100# wood cross bow? You would not need the draw length and it would be MUCH more practical I would think.
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http://www.straightdope.com/
The best explanation of the glue bond I've seen . We learned about this in college (Cabinetmaking) That was a long time ago ;) had to look for a refresher myself . Of particular interest in this article is that it starts out with" We don't really know". ................................... Science is really a lot of that. It's just not usually admitted. ;)
Another experiment like the 2 pieces of steel with copper in between. Take 2 pieces of glass (clean and flat) and add a drop of water between them. If they are dead flat , you don't even need the water. Try to pull them apart.
As for the rest of this topic, ............ try to keep in the spirit of this forum everybody . I'm not sure why it has been allowed to carry on in this fashion for so long.
I will read the article linked, haven't gotten to it yet. But the examples you give are worth considering. Again, I would hazard a guess that the steel copper interface (when stressed) is more of a steel-copper alloy layer unless the pieces separate cleanly (which they may, I am curious about this effect).
The other case is more like our glue joints i think. The glass and water thing is really that water has a high surface tension, and that force is a barrier to overcome when you pull at the glass. Important to our discussion from before is that after they are apart you have two wet pieces of glass-it has not changed through reaction with water at any level, molecular or otherwise. When enough surface area is presented things like hydrogen bonding can form surprisingly strong interactions without a real reaction-these are the things that hold your whole body together in fact.
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I kind of enjoy the idea of a challenge thread. I certainly don't need any bows, I don't make bows for a living, I just enjoy making them, if they break or don't break means little to me as the price of a piece of wood for me is like the price of going to a movie, I build bows to entertain myself.
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All this talk of 'what would I do with it afterwards' ' pointless bow' etc.......well it's pretty darn simple - just keep narrowing it until it's the weight you want. Anybody who has done this before will know that you can easily reduce a 100# bow to 60# with no loss of performance (same gpp arrow).
I'll be working on mine tomorrow. ;)
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I think we ought to start thinking on a name for this mythical (so far) bow, you know like in Game Of Thrones with the swords names like "oath keeper". I'm thinking "teddy thrower" what do you think?
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I think we ought to start thinking on a name for this mythical (so far) bow, you know like in Game Of Thrones with the swords names like "oath keeper". I'm thinking "teddy thrower" what do you think?
Teddy thrower...
Damn you made me snort my tea over the keyboard! :laugh:
Del
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I think we ought to start thinking on a name for this mythical (so far) bow, you know like in Game Of Thrones with the swords names like "oath keeper". I'm thinking "teddy thrower" what do you think?
Or we could call it Napoleon. Short bow, big punch!
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All this talk of 'what would I do with it afterwards' ' pointless bow' etc.......well it's pretty darn simple - just keep narrowing it until it's the weight you want. Anybody who has done this before will know that you can easily reduce a 100# bow to 60# with no loss of performance (same gpp arrow).
I'll be working on mine tomorrow. ;)
Of course Mike, but if the bow is built to prove a point then some would rather keep it in original form. A bow that someone is skeptical about holding together carries a bit more weight if it keeps shooting for years.
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I wanted to clarify what it was that actually started this, well let's just call it a "debate" :). Adam made this statement
66" ntn for longer draws and heavier weights, and down to 60" ntn for shorter draws and lighter weights.
which I rebuked with this statement Not quite sure where people get this length measurements in relation to draw weight. The length of a bow is directly proportional to draw length, draw weight is irrelevant. That's like saying you are going to make a a 60" bow for a guy that wants a 35# bow with a 32" draw, absurd. You can make a 60" bow pull 100# as long as the draw length matches the length of the bow.
. Adam's statement is misinformation and put out there for the masses to see which I couldn't let stand. Most accomplished bowyers know this, either by experience or by instinct, but newbies reading this would get the wrong idea. I guess this burnt Adam's behind and the war was on
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Just thought I'd throw this out there... ::)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/cbergerman/junk/bitter.jpg)
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What arouses my curiosity is how many people here think this bow can be made without too much trouble and how many think it can't be done. I know several have chimed in saying that it can, and fairly easily, but not many have openly said no. I did notice that pretty well all that said yes were experienced bowyers with a high degree of talent.
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I kind of enjoy the idea of a challenge thread. I certainly don't need any bows, I don't make bows for a living, I just enjoy making them, if they break or don't break means little to me as the price of a piece of wood for me is like the price of going to a movie, I build bows to entertain myself.
I think it's a good idea as well Steve, I just don't have the time to participate right now. I have a sportsman show coming up this weekend I have to prepare for, then I have a lot of firewood I have to split, never mind the woodshed I have to build for the wood, and because we just moved back here last year there are a lot of other things that need to be done. I am overwhelmed and may have to put bow building on the back-burner for a little while again this year, something I don't really want to do.
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I think we ought to start thinking on a name for this mythical (so far) bow, you know like in Game Of Thrones with the swords names like "oath keeper". I'm thinking "teddy thrower" what do you think?
Teddy thrower...
Damn you made me snort my tea over the keyboard! :laugh:
Del
Del, hold your tea man.. Hold your tea like a good English man ;D
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I kind of enjoy the idea of a challenge thread. I certainly don't need any bows, I don't make bows for a living, I just enjoy making them, if they break or don't break means little to me as the price of a piece of wood for me is like the price of going to a movie, I build bows to entertain myself.
I think it's a good idea as well Steve, I just don't have the time to participate right now. I have a sportsman show coming up this weekend I have to prepare for, then I have a lot of firewood I have to split, never mind the woodshed I have to build for the wood, and because we just moved back here last year there are a lot of other things that need to be done. I am overwhelmed and may have to put bow building on the back-burner for a little while again this year, something I don't really want to do.
Mark, I totally understand. We all have our own particular schedules and reasons for building. After all the impossible stuff I have seen you come up with over the years you certainly have nothing to prove.
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Well now Adam is saying it can be done and even fairly easily, he just doubted that certain people can pull it off.
You can challenge without insulting though.
The fact that Adam just asked us for advice on how to get his recurves to hold together and then a short while later tells us we can't make a far simpler bow is a bit baffling. The mistakes he was making were glaringly basic and showed some lack of understanding on how a narrow handled bow is stressed. A lot of our offense comes from this whole chain of events.
Quite often the student ends up surpassing the teacher but not in the first few weeks of grade 1.
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What happened to our famous Canadian politeness ? >:D
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No kidding bubbles
This thread got kinda ugly.
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I think I can trace the origins of the animosity back to "the rant" thread.
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Wow! Just read this whole thread... 30 min of my life i can never get back... Please take this kinda crap to facebook..they like it.... Brian
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Wow! Just read this whole thread... 30 min of my life i can never get back... Please take this kinda crap to facebook..they like it.... Brian
we need a "like" button on here
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Lol bowman.
Bubbles the rant indeed is what I was thinking :)
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I don't see why this is even still up?
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Canadians are always willing to defend themselves and we are competitive.
Are those bad traits?
If you let everything slide, people will walk all over you. It was getting to the point that Marc couldn't post without Adam leaping onto every point.
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I don't see why this is even still up?
Sometimes people need to blow off some steam. As long as they keep it contained to one thread and things don't get too nasty then you might as well let them have it out.
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I don't see why this is even still up?
Sometimes people need to blow off some steam. As long as they keep it contained to one thread and things don't get too nasty then you might as well let them have it out.
hahaha in that case, BUBBY YOU EGOTISTICAL KNOW IT ALL IM CALLING YOU OUT!!!!! HAHAHA JK
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I don't know what's behind this, none of my business I suppose. But this kind of thing on other sites is what lead me here. PA has always been a friendly place full of great information in a fun atmosphere. I really hope this is not the future...
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I don't know what's behind this, none of my business I suppose. But this kind of thing on other sites is what lead me here. PA has always been a friendly place full of great information in a fun atmosphere. I really hope this is not the future...
Guarantee it won't get like that. And from the email I got from a certain, key poster, the 'rant" is where it stems from.
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Cap lock, hardcore debate, calling people out, yep, got to say I am glad for once not to be involved...but I think the poster above is right, a like button would be cool here's my suggestion.
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Hey, I for one enjoyed the thread. Yeah it got a little nasty when it shouldn't have, but patm is right in my mind in that a man should be capable of defending himself. If he is called out in a public forum then defending himself publically is expected. Maybe I am from a different generation or a different culture geographically than some, but I saw a good debate that just got a little to personal in nature, but it cleared the air. Sometimes, that's what it takes.
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I just read this thread all the way through, hoping to find an apology and that things would be settled in a friendly way. This thread violated Rule #5 in the Message Board Rules.
This has made me more determined to never do any personal attacks and let's keep this forum friendly, positive , and encouraging.
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Believe it or not there are a lot of things we still don't understand about bows and arrows. A good debate never has to get personnal. Sometimes two different lines of thought being presented for the readers to sort out on their own is as good as it gets. I never have a problem with being challenged. I have a lot of experience making bows but I find myself being wrong quite often about things. Things that I felt like I had proved to myself by trial and error sometimes turn out differently than I thought because I didn't do enough trials. I appreciate and will gladly argue a counter view on things. It doesn't mean I have a problem with the guy I am argueing with it might just mean we disagree on one issue.
Something that I have been playing with lately that I am finding very encouraging is making wider bows for lower over all mass. This goes against everything I have said in the past. It may just apply to certain woods and not others but I am seeing it with more and more regularity. The idea is that by maiking a bow 1/2 wider than I normally would is allowing me to make the bow much thinner than I could have at the norrower width. This could only be true if more wood is being damaged by compression than I had previously given credit for. I am finding very low hysterisis in wide thin bows, very low set and excellent performance. The biggest surprise is that the mass is comming out lighter. On the down side very thin bows .325 for instance on a 66" bow hard hard to tiller and easy to hinge. Another debate??? Don't dare disagree me!! Who do you think you are anyway??
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I agree with your new findings Steve, it was your mass theory that I didn't buy into. ;)
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Pat, it was actually the mass theory that steered me in this direction. It kind of went like this. I said ok I will just make the bows extra wide and then side tiller them to hit my mass. Funny thing was I was hitting mass without norrowing, limbs much thinner, much crispier and faster. Using a very flat belly is the key to wide bows being an effective way to lower mass. I started playing around with going increasingly wider, nothing really drastic but maybe 30% wider than I would normaly go. I continue to be surprised at how well it is working out. Osage bows 2" wide sounds rediculous for a 50# bow 60" long, I still finished up with 18 oz mass weight. I haven't done enough to know how wood specific this is and the extra thin limbs make them a pain in the ass to tiller but I am liking the results.
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Steve if you were to start another thread on this subject I would chime in. I hate that I have even replied to this thread :(
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Steve if you were to start another thread on this subject I would chime in. I hate that I have even replied to this thread :(
Good idea.
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well,,most of the time I keep my mouth shut here on pa,, some of you guys know me, some of you don't,, from time to time I post some here,,a while back I was appointed as a moderator,, im not going to rant, play the blame game, or try to moderate on this subject,,, I just want everyone to know, the time that individuals have spent here on the showdown to just stop and think about how much of that time could have been spent making a bow, trying a new design, pushing skills to the limit and beyond.. time is something you cannot get back,, lets just build some bows.............. just saying jp
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well,,most of the time I keep my mouth shut here on pa,, some of you guys know me, some of you don't,, from time to time I post some here,,a while back I was appointed as a moderator,, im not going to rant, play the blame game, or try to moderate on this subject,,, I just want everyone to know, the time that individuals have spent here on the showdown to just stop and think about how much of that time could have been spent making a bow, trying a new design, pushing skills to the limit and beyond.. time is something you cannot get back,, lets just build some bows.............. just saying jp
well said, build your bows and move on
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Steve, there are a lot of things I don't understand about bows, too, and I've been makin' and breakin' since the late 80's.
I have to admit I prefer makin' over breakin'! :)
Jawge
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well,,most of the time I keep my mouth shut here on pa,, some of you guys know me, some of you don't,, from time to time I post some here,,a while back I was appointed as a moderator,, im not going to rant, play the blame game, or try to moderate on this subject,,, I just want everyone to know, the time that individuals have spent here on the showdown to just stop and think about how much of that time could have been spent making a bow, trying a new design, pushing skills to the limit and beyond.. time is something you cannot get back,, lets just build some bows.............. just saying jp
However this is getting a bunch of bows built that likely wouldn't have otherwise. It's always someone daring another person or us daring ourselves that makes those limits be pushed.
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Believe it or not most of my replies were not anger driven. There were a couple times Adam ticked me off but I was amused much more often than I was ticked and the rest of the time it was neither the one nor the other. I hope that we sorted out some misconceptions and that was my main goal.
I do believe that the experienced bowyers we have here have a sort of responsibility to those coming up behind us to make sure that they are not misinformed. I'm not saying I know everything because quite frankly I learn something from the people on this site practically every day.
One thing we do have to remember is that it is easy enough to be misunderstood when having a conversation with someone face to face. This medium of exchanging words/ideas makes it even easier to be misunderstood since we don't have the facial clues or vocal intonations to tell the person we are talking with that we are joking around. That's why I try to keep my emotions under check but sometimes it's hard :(
In any case if I did inadvertently offend anyone then I do apologize.
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wouldnt that be cool if we had that feature on here
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A much better showdown would actually be a Warbow versus "other" bows of similar draw weight.
That might be a better one to introduce on the Warbow/ELB forum.
Who wants to build that 130 pound static recurve that will toss a heavy arrow better than a longbow?
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If this thread bothers so many of you, don't read it. Some of us clearly found it interesting. A perfect & civil debate would be nice, but that's not typically how debates work. And, a slightly heated debate is probably better than no debate at all.
I'd really like to see somebody make the bow. I'd do it, but I'm still having trouble with my tillering after several years of making bows. I'd probably injure myself making a bow like that. It'd look like Vlad The Impaler came through town.
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better yet pat, who wants to draw a 130# static recurve >:D
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How different would it be from a longbow of the same weight?
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Steve, How about you start another thread and I'll get rid of this one since the first 10 or 12 pages is mostly pissing and moaning? I'd like to see someone build a 130# static or flat bow, also.
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Can you imagine the string tension of a 130# static recurve? Yuk. It's desire to shear off any tip overlays you put on would be extremely high.
The guy that asked me to build him one wanted it pulling to 32". I'm pretty sure that making it in the style of the last static I posted here I could get away with it being 65" long and still keep some decent reflex once tillered out.
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Steve, How about you start another thread and I'll get rid of this one since the first 10 or 12 pages is mostly pissing and moaning? I'd like to see someone build a 130# static or flat bow, also.
I would not attempt a 130# static. I imagine it could be done but I wouldn't want any part of it. I have made plenty of 100# flatbows when playing around with boards, most of them closer to 6 ft. I might have a use for 100# static as someone could shoot it at the flights, 130# I don't know anyone attending that can draw that much.
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Joe Gibbs made a 177# flat bow recently. Made from wenge and pau amarello. Shot a heavy warbow arrow over 300 yards. There's a vid on Facebook but you need to be part of a certain group to see it. Very impressive though.
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Joe Gibbs made a 177# flat bow recently. Made from wenge and pau amarello. Shot a heavy warbow arrow over 300 yards. There's a vid on Facebook but you need to be part of a certain group to see it. Very impressive though.
I would like to see that video.
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I'm honestly not sure how I could show it, unless you're friends on Facebook with the guy who posted it. It's set to private. Joe also made a Turkish bow at 170# which he shot the same day. The guy is a monster, both in shooting and building these bows.
One thing I don't know is whether he used any fibreglass on the 177# flat bow. I'll try and at least get a screenshot of it at full draw and post that in here as soon as I can. Apologies for sparking any interest and not being able to offer more information!
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Yes that would be interesting to see
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I would really like to see the 170# Turkish bow,, especially if it is a true horn and sinew composite.....
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I have a piece of Elm that I will strive to make the heaviest static that it has in it. We'll see.
Adam Karpowicz makes composite bows pulling up to something like 160 pounds so the inserted sliver of horn or bone at the tips will solve the potential tip issue.
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better yet pat, who wants to draw a 130# static recurve >:D
Where is ff101 when u need him lol
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Hopefully this won't be too disappointing, but as I'm unable to share the private video this is all I can provide!
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Screenshot_2014-04-30-09-45-31_1_zps2984b3bf.jpg)
Kurgan bow, 170@32. Shot an EWBS standard arrow (800gr/52g) over 300 yards.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Screenshot_2014-04-30-09-43-53_zps41e338f7.png)
Wenge/pau amarello core flat bow, 177@32 shot a standard arrow again somewhere near 300 yards. I wasn't there when Joe was shooting these, they just appeared on Facebook, so I have very little info unfortunately.
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That guy is a hell of a bowyer. (also, a freaking monster! :) )
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Funny how the grains per pound rule seems to follow even up into the heavier weights. A 50# bow will shoot a 250 grain arrow a bit over 300 yards, a 100# bow will shoot a 500 grain arrow a bit over 300 yards. It makes my back hurt just watching draw that bow.
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Yes, with the type of glue I'm using, it occurs at the molecular level. Do your research... I did.
You didn't answer the question about hysteresis.
If I'm making a bow that will be higher draw weight and/or longer draw length, I'll make it longer and/or wider.
I want to see you make a 100# 60" flatbow please. And not one that draws 2". It would have to be of some meaningful use, with a draw length of at least 24"-26". A 60" bow of 50# can easily be pulled to 28".
You threw it out there. Let's see it. I'm challenging you to put your money where your mouth is. And we're talking a flatbow here, not a composite horsebow, static recurve, etc. Backed or unbacked... up to you.
How did you all get to 130# static recurves from the original challenge of a 100# 60" flat bow drawing 24-26 inches? Also why is this topic not in the war bow section?
rich
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Be nice to know the actual distances. Over 300 yards and close to 300 yards are a bit vague. Seems like the lighter weight recurve still shot farther, as might be expected. >:D
I'd like to know more about the unstrung profile and mechanics of the recurve. Hard to tell from a snapshot of partial draw exactly how it is working.
I am however more interested in a straight up comparison of two self wood bows, recurve versus longbow. Profile versus profile rather than a material comparison as well.
Both from the same tree would be even better.
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Yes, with the type of glue I'm using, it occurs at the molecular level. Do your research... I did.
You didn't answer the question about hysteresis.
If I'm making a bow that will be higher draw weight and/or longer draw length, I'll make it longer and/or wider.
I want to see you make a 100# 60" flatbow please. And not one that draws 2". It would have to be of some meaningful use, with a draw length of at least 24"-26". A 60" bow of 50# can easily be pulled to 28".
You threw it out there. Let's see it. I'm challenging you to put your money where your mouth is. And we're talking a flatbow here, not a composite horsebow, static recurve, etc. Backed or unbacked... up to you.
How did you all get to 130# static recurves from the original challenge of a 100# 60" flat bow drawing 24-26 inches? Also why is this topic not in the war bow section?
rich
Marc mentioned a guy wanting a heavy weight recurve in the original discussion, which generates this. It likely is an actual challenge, the original not so much.
It probably should be in the warbow section but a heavy weight wooden static is not commonly thought of as a warbow, hence the crossover.
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I'd like to see that hornbow he is shooting.
However it's nothing like a Turkish bow >:D I am currently making a set of three new Turkish bows, two of these are going to be Turkish flight bows, one of them is going to be a heavyweight....IF it stays together I may have to look this chap up to shoot it!
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Shows what I know about Turkish bows!! Apparently it's called a Kurgan? No idea.
Joe is shooting 190# plus currently, so I would imagine he'd do justice to whatever you come up with!
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I would not attempt a 130# static. I imagine it could be done but I wouldn't want any part of it. I have made plenty of 100# flatbows when playing around with boards, most of them closer to 6 ft. I might have a use for 100# static as someone could shoot it at the flights, 130# I don't know anyone attending that can draw that much.
Actually the more I think of it the more it sounds like an interesting build. I might just make one once I get more time.
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Why have I not seen any 100# 60" bows yet? I agree this would not be hard. I have never made such a bow, but here is a 42" near replica Lakota white ash bow. It has a draw of 90# at 20". The person in the full draw pic is the new owner that wanted a short bow replica with a 80+ pound draw.
Marc, in the time it has taken you to respond to this post you could have made 2 100# 60" bows.
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Oops. Posted 2 of the same pics. Ment to post the unstrung profile with some string follow
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Wasn't the kurgen out of the highlander films....one of the immortals....'there can be only one!'
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The Kurgen
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Atta Boy Chuck. Design is the issue I think....not... >:D j/p this thing is funny. Just keeps going, got alligator blood in it
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I would not attempt a 130# static. I imagine it could be done but I wouldn't want any part of it. I have made plenty of 100# flatbows when playing around with boards, most of them closer to 6 ft. I might have a use for 100# static as someone could shoot it at the flights, 130# I don't know anyone attending that can draw that much.
Actually the more I think of it the more it sounds like an interesting build. I might just make one once I get more time.
If you decide to build it James would be more than happy to shoot it I bet. It would give your bow a good shot at records in both broadhead and regular flight. Are you thinking self or backed?
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I was thinking backed. Self would be tough and I would probably have to make it a bit longer. I thought Marlon was the heavy bow guy
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Marlon has not been showing up, he was drawing over 150#. James has been workjing out and can draw 100# now.
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simmer down fellas ;D :laugh:
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You got here just in time to watch the credits roll. ;D
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41624.45.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41624.45.html)
Don't know if this was posted yet but I'm not reading through 17 pages. This is a really silly thread...
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I thought of that one too but since it's sinew backed that would rightfully be pointed out as a "'crutch" for attaining high weight from a shorter bow.
Sift the wheat from the chaff on this thread. Revisit in a month when everyone that wants to take a shot at the challenge does so.
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This thread is only 5 pages long if you change your settings. Much easier to read ;)
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I thought of that one too but since it's sinew backed that would rightfully be pointed out as a "'crutch" for attaining high weight from a shorter bow.
Sift the wheat from the chaff on this thread. Revisit in a month when everyone that wants to take a shot at the challenge does so.
But it was also 4 inches shorter than the potential challenge bow.
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When Adam posited the challenge he mentioned no extras. That even included things that it would make it harder to achieve.
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I'm pretty sure this bow would not satisfy Adam
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Hehe, what a wonderful topic ;D I remember having heated discussions with ADB some years back... :)
Here's a 58" bamboo backed ipe, drawing about 80# @ 27". I'd say it's a flatbow. It even has a very long non-bending handle, and long tip sections which bend nearly nothing. It's about 1,5" wide at the fades, and followed the string about an inch. It even shot 370 meters once.
Make the handle shorter, convert the limbs to pyramid design, and it would easily have drawn 100#.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/370/IMG_3518.jpg)
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He did say no backing although I'm not sure exactly what features he considers cheating to attain this bow. Still, the simple selfbow is the goal to meet the standard.
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;D
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Probably one of the nicer things said in this thread so far but that is an awesome little bow Kviljo. I'd really like to make something similar at around 45-50lbs. Need to get some ipe now that the bandsaw is back in good working order.
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Interesting thread. 8)
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I have a piece of avacado I will try for this. >:D
Just remember guys that this is a fun, educational forum used by good, fun-loving folks.
Lets keep it that way.
Cheers
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Just wondering, is anybody taking this challenge up?
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I've read most of this and all I can do is laugh ;D
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Geeeez...
Drop out for a month or so to move...
Come back to the Beat of War Drums... 8)
I'll be watching from here on out...
-gus
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Just wondering, is anybody taking this challenge up?
Of course. In my own sweet time. I only have billets suitable for the task and some longer green staves that I am not quite wiling to steer down another path that wasn't planned for them.
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Just wondering, is anybody taking this challenge up?
Of course. In my own sweet time. I only have billets suitable for the task and some longer green staves that I am not quite wiling to steer down another path that wasn't planned for them.
Cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what people come up with.
Thought about trying it myself, but when I got looking through my stash of dried wood I found that I'm left with mostly B-grade wood, or highly crowned staves. I'm not sure if my skills would be up to the task anyway, but maybe I'll give it a go with some HHB that should be good and dry by the new year.
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The specs listed will surely make any attempts very similar.
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Well, time's up. It's been a month today and nobody has made this bow. All bets are also off. I'm not surprised.
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Welcome back Adam. ;)
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Well, time's up. It's been a month today and nobody has made this bow. All bets are also off. I'm not surprised.
So, ...does that mean it's actually not possible then? Just trying to keep score here.
OneBow
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There were a few people who had expressed interest. But noone seemed interested in hitting the deadline. I'd be surprised if we don't see something rise to the challenge sometime this summer.
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Nobody was interested in the deadline. I certainly wasn't when Adam reneged on his original bet (with me) and then ran away.
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Just for reference the bow that currently holds the world unlimited self bow flight record in the broadhead class was a hickory bow that measured 100#@28" and was 68" long. The bow was built by Jerimia Rutherford and didn't appear to be extrordinary in any ways. I would have guessed the bow by looking at it to be about 70#. Jerimia was from a very dry climate in New Mexico which was very well suited for hickory bows. It was a very typical stiff handled American longbow.
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Good to see you back Adam. I hope you resume sharing in the other posts. For me, your spirited attitude and passion for bow building is a positive for the forum. Ron
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Yes, I enjoy your bows and input as well. I understand boys will be boys. But bygones will be bygones :laugh:
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I wasn't even interested in the showdown, even though it's has my name on it, it was PatM that started the thread. Any good bowyer with a broad knowledge base knows it's not even a challenge.
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Hey Mark, don't feel bad, Doc Holiday and Wyatt Earp had the same problem.
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I wasn't even interested in the showdown, even though it's has my name on it, it was PatM that started the thread. Any good bowyer with a broad knowledge base knows it's not even a challenge.
Like I've said throughout this entire thread Marc, if it's so easy, then show us the way.
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I don't feel bad Steve, slightly amused if anything. I am starting to catch up a bit on my workload. Lost almost 10# in 3 weeks, mostly in sweat :)
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Nobody was interested in the deadline. I certainly wasn't when Adam reneged on his original bet (with me) and then ran away.
Nobody ran away. I simply took a break. A break from behaviour exactly like this.
You and I had a bet. I did NOT renege on our bet. The time limit has passed. The bet has expired.
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There is no us. You are only person that needs this proved to Adam and I have no interest in doing so
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Welcome back Adam. ;)
Thanks, Pat. However, I won't be around much. I won't be posting any bows or offering any input. The forum has lost a bit of it's luster. I found myself spending way too much time 'discussing' issues and getting behind with my work.
I'm sure you'll all get along just fine. ;)
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There is no us. You are only person that needs this proved to Adam and I have no interest in doing so
OK, Marc. Carry on.
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Nobody was interested in the deadline. I certainly wasn't when Adam reneged on his original bet (with me) and then ran away.
Nobody ran away. I simply took a break. A break from behaviour exactly like this.
You and I had a bet. I did NOT renege on our bet. The time limit has passed. The bet has expired.
No, you opened up your offer to everyone that wanted to have a go. It was just ME that made the bet. Rather than suddenly competing against a bunch of people who might want to take up your offer I chose to take my time. In fact I don't recall anyone saying they would be done in a month. That was all you and your overbearing behavior.
The contest is not to see who can make it first. It's to see who can make it at all.
Needless to say nobody seemed to want one of your bows that badly.
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What little good will was left for the parties involved when this thread settled down is now rapidly being spent.
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Nobody was interested in the deadline. I certainly wasn't when Adam reneged on his original bet (with me) and then ran away.
Nobody ran away. I simply took a break. A break from behaviour exactly like this.
You and I had a bet. I did NOT renege on our bet. The time limit has passed. The bet has expired.
No, you opened up your offer to everyone that wanted to have a go. It was just ME that made the bet. Rather than suddenly competing against a bunch of people who might want to take up your offer I chose to take my time. In fact I don't recall anyone saying they would be done in a month. That was all you and your overbearing behavior.
The contest is not to see who can make it first. It's to see who can make it at all.
Needless to say nobody seemed to want one of your bows that badly.
OK, PatM. You carry on, too.
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I'm actually quite sad I just spent however minutes reading 19 pages. I was reading it lke a suspenseful novel but got to an anticlimactic end. Oh well, on to another much shorter thread.
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IMHO this thread should be deleted. I think "adb" can simply start a new thread with the same challenge and let it stand for a while. I also would love to see the bows that meet the challenge. I don't think it would be easy but it would be definitely possible. I would be even satisfied if someone posts a 50# bow that is 60" long and has 26" draw length but it's limbs are not much wider than 1.5 inch. That means we can make the 100# challenge bow that is not much more than 3 inch wide. It's rather hard to believe that such a short 50# flat bow has not been done yet.
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I haven't quite finished reading this thread so I'm sorry if I missed it but I've yet to see a reason why this is supposed to be so hard
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IMHO this thread should be deleted. I think "adb" can simply start a new thread with the same challenge and let it stand for a while. I also would love to see the bows that meet the challenge. I don't think it would be easy but it would be definitely possible. I would be even satisfied if someone posts a 50# bow that is 60" long and has 26" draw length but it's limbs are not much wider than 1.5 inch. That means we can make the 100# challenge bow that is not much more than 3 inch wide. It's rather hard to believe that such a short 50# flat bow has not been done yet.
(http://i.imgur.com/dMj7wQz.jpg)
Well since this bow is 1.75" wide at its widest and only 521/2" long pulling 55#@27" I really don't see the challenge of your 50# bow. BL is too chrysal happy for the 100# bow I think, but osage, hickory, white oak, ocianspray, yew, and more could definitely do it.
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lovely tiller on that :)
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I too think this thread does no-one any favours.
It isn't going to help anybody from a bowyery point of view. The main protagonists sound like a bunch of school children to me. Come on guys - snide comments don't put you all across in a very good light.
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Well I got to page 8 and then skipped to here, man O man. ::) By the way nice bend on that bow huisme,it was well worth the time spent on this thread. ;) :)
Pappy
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I was thinking about this thread last night and it made me think of the Leatherwall and the white-wood wars of the 90's.
It is indeed a sad thread but better that than letting misinformation stand for newbies to see and accept as gospel.
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Didn't think it was that bad Marc,everyone seemed to stay PRETTY civil :) I just got tired of reading about something I have no desire or intentions of building, and like a lot of other aspects of this wood bow thing,lots of different oppions myths and half truths out there, and also lots of folks that think they have all the right answers. Always been that way and probably always will. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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True Mark, it was somewhat civil.
When you set limitations you are also limiting your imagination.
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Please don't let them turn their imaginations loose. :o
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ok..patb....now that was funny! 8)
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I cut number of elm trees with this in my mind and they are now dry enough to trust their stability. Should have something soon.
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It'll never work Pat....:)
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Well I got to page 8 and then skipped to here, man O man. ::) By the way nice bend on that bow huisme,it was well worth the time spent on this thread. ;) :)
Pappy
Daw shucks ;D
Anyone think any vine maple has a 60" 100#@26" bow in it? It seems to me it'd be a fun hike to find a trunk large enough to avoid having to decrown something like that.
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As an impartial observer (I've been lurking these forums for about a year, but just now getting around to signing up and posting) with no long-standing relationships with anyone here, this thread is pretty silly.
To the "challenger" -- it's pretty weak to offer up a pretty killer reward for anyone that can do it, and then make stipulation after stipulation and change the framing over and over again. And why should there be a time limit on it? Pretty silly to me. It's almost as if ... you know someone will do it, and you don't want to actually have to make good on your promise.
And to those who were/are entertaining it, someone should just do it already! It's one thing to say it's possible, even easy. It's another to passive-aggressively belittle the talents of the other bowyers here.
But I think it'd be awesome to actually see this thing, whether or not there is a sweet static recurve at the end of the rainbow or not.
In other words: A lot of barking around here....
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I got no dog in the fight but... Don't cross-bow guys do this?
I realize the draw length is is small, but so is the length... For example... here is a 32" yew paddle bow prod (made buy Shaun) that pulls 105# @ 9.5". Straight with no recurves. If this is possible, than why shouldn't it make sense that you could double the length of that prod, add some limb width (say 3.5 inches wide) and be be pulling a nice paddle bow, in the mid 20" draw length range at over 100#.. Correct? Am I missing one of the rules?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,36504.msg480625.html#msg480625
Gabe
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There is no reason to go over slightly more than 2 inches in limb width.
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Well, I'd say that depends on how long your bow is Pat.
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60 inches, like the rules say. High quality wood can take that.
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Gabe, a few years back I made a cross bow prode from ipe, it was around 32" long and draw about 125#@14" , I would guess now about 1 1/2 wide
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Marc, the white-wood/yellow-wood discussions we had on the Leatherwall spawned Mojam and many more get togethers like it.
I'm sure this thread started out headed in a good direction. It's to bad personal feelings led it down a different path. But it has gotten people to think about what we do and why we do it. I build bows because I enjoy doing it and I know some one will enjoy shooting the bow.
I don't do it to satisfy my ego or just to prove it can be done. That would be a waste of my time or any one who decided to do it.
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Why would proving something can be done be considered a waste of time?
The mere fact that we build wooden bows is a way of proving it can be done, particularly our first working bow.
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If I only built bows as needed I would have had a lifetime supply after my first year. Beer is a waste of time, TV is a waste of time. So what if we build bows to entertain ourselves.
I roughed out an osage stave today at 60" and 2 1/4 wide. I will see if I can hit 100# with t tomorrow.
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I knew if I said things just right, I could bump some body off zero :)
Badger, you should have contacted me before working up that blank. I have a prime piece of osage close to those demintions in my procrastination pile, been there for 10-12 years. Would have been glad to send it to you.
Reason it's still in that pile. I'm getting to old to make a 100+lb. bow :( Besides, it is a waste of my time. I'd rather make something a person can get some use of.
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I wished I would have contacted you!
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Badger,
At 2.5" wide at 60" you'll get more than 100#. My last bow posted, ( Victory Bow) is only an inch wide at 55.5" long and pulls 45#@ 26". if you add 4.5 " in length and double the width to 2" you'll well be over 100# rest assured.
Knapper
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I may have screwed up allready, getting a pretty good bend in the fades at 90# pull.
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Hey, you can always pike it ;) :o
Del :laugh:
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I have it out to 100#@20" on the long string and getting ready to brace it after a couple of touch ups. Hasn't lost any reflex yet, I am starting with 1 3/4", I hope to finish straight. I am thinking I should put nock overlays before I brace it, kind of worried about the fast flight string cutting into the self nocks. She snapped the pics when I started letting up, only pulling around 70# here.
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I'm rootin' for you Badger. I'm eager to see what you finish with. :)
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I have only had it out to 100# one time, my brain makes my body stop pulling at around 85#, it is really hard to force myself to pull more than that on this short bow. I think my intuition is taking over and I tend to trust it more. It will take longer than usual to tiller because I am trying to keep the limbs dead flat and scrapers don't like wide flat limbs.
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Looking good Steve.
There's always a concern when making a heavy weight bow and it doesn't matter how long, or short, it is. I get nervous when I'm making a relatively short bow with a long draw
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This is what I (and I'm sure others) have been waiting for. Thanks for sharing your work Badger!
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Be sure to post some pics when you take it elephant hunting
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Lookin good!
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This pic is about 85#@19 1/2 on the long string, the right limb was a little strong. I evened that up and am at 100#@23" on a long string and ready to brace. Braced has a lot more tension and I would feel a lot better at bringing this bow in around 85#. I am going to put some nock overlays on and hopefully finish it up tomorrow. I will video the last few inches in case it breaks.
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I think this pic is right
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Why would it break Steve?
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Mark, just physchological I think, I checked the mass and it is right on target at 30 oz. Should finish up at 29 oz.
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Just make sure you keep enough wood at the handle :)
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I'd imagine braceing that guy would be quite the job. :)
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Just make sure you keep enough wood at the handle :)
Yeah.. and might wanna do a few extra push-ups before the full draw pic. Wouldn't hurt to have phone nearby to dial 911. :laugh:
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Wish you the best, Steve. You can do it. :) Jawge
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Ron (Zenhart) I was planning on you posing for the full draw pic.
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Way to go Steve!!!! Wish I was retired n kids out of the house,n had nuttin better to do and build the "unbuildable" bow...lol :laugh: .....hopefully this gets this thread back on track,and ends this lil squeamish 8) ....looks like you have plenty of wood to handle it..I don't see why it wouldn't make it if handled right
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I love how low-key this is 8)
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Ron (Zenhart) I was planning on you posing for the full draw pic.
Oh… gee.. uh.. pretty sure that day I'll be outta town.
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Looking good Steve,keep us posted,and yes I think the tip over lays is a very good idea on that one. :)
Pappy
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Very cool to see this being done Badger. Not sure if I can watch the video when you pull those last few inches, I'll probably flinch just seeing it bend. Hope it holds together and if it blows I hope it doesn't shatter the computer screens
of all of us who watch it. :)
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I'm glad to see some pics of a bow on this thred. Great job Steve can't wait for the vid.
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Let the beast lose Badger!!!
Knapper
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Tried to brace it here but I need to reinforce my bow press, as you can see the bottom rail is too light. I normaly just push down with one hand and run the string up with the other but this one takes both hands so I needed to use the crank.
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The outer limb look a tad stiff but they bend more when you back off the press and let the weight go on the string.
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I never seen one of those presses before, pretty cool. I would like to build me one of those! Looking good though!
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I never seen one of those presses before, pretty cool. I would like to build me one of those! Looking good though!
That's thar's the "Badgermatic String-a-ma-jig" :laugh: ;)
Cool device... dunno if I have room in my tiny workshop for one tho'
Del
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What sort of a string do you mean to use for this beastie when she gets ready to be properly braced, ...and ... all god's granting grace... shot in?
OneBow
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10 strands of FastFlight will be plenty safe for 100#. 12 strands would make life more comfortable of course.
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10 strands of FastFlight will be plenty safe for 100#. 12 strands would make life more comfortable of course.
I just braced it with 16 strands fast flite, it took about 3 seconds to stretch it out to no brace from 6" brace. I don't know if the twist is slipping on my flemish or what, it appears to just have stretched out. I am going to make a few more adjustments and try again, my face is sitting right on top of the limb when I attach the string and making me a bit nervous. Once the string is all stretched out it won't take much to hold it. I twisted it up and tried again, here she is braced. Going to leave it sit for 30 min or so.
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I never seen one of those presses before, pretty cool. I would like to build me one of those! Looking good though!
That's thar's the "Badgermatic String-a-ma-jig" :laugh: ;)
Cool device... dunno if I have room in my tiny workshop for one tho'
Del
Well Del, size isn't everything. Its not the size of the workshop that matters, its the quality of the tools..... at least that's what my fiance tells me.
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Looking good Steve. You won't be able to do much with the handle though, unless you plan on laminating a piece to increase its thickness
The limbs don't look unduly thick either.
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That does look great at brace. Jawge
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that bow looks great! I can't wait to see it shot - I'd love to shoot it myself just to say I did it.
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Mark, handle is slightly under 1 1/4", thats all the stave would give me. I don't see any flex in it at 100# pull so should be ok. 90#@22" so far, no loss of weight from compression yet so it is looking good. I still have some minor adjustments to make, going to try and recruit a photographer.
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Well, I have to stop now till photographer shows up, I have one more pull to make it, I am 93# at 24 and gaining 4.5# per inch, should put me at about 103# @26" if she holds. I want the last pull photographed just in case.
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Looks good, Steve. That's a bow Art Young would have been happy to take to Alaska for Grizzly or Africa for Lion.
How long is your handle?
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Pat handle and fades are right at 11", I keep them a little longer to keep the handshock down. I would like more bending in the outer limbs but I don't have any weight to play with so will just have to go with it where it is. No room for any more adjustments. I lost about 1/2 my reflex and it sits now at 3/4" reflex right off the bow rack.
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3/4" reflex still is good!
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Can't wait to see it loose an arrow
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This is sweet.
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That is great Steve. Did you keep the 2 1/4" limb width?
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Mark, at the widest point I am just slightly under 2 1/8". I feel like it will make it but you never know, I can't find anyone to operate the dam movie camera and I don't know how. If it passes the test I will probably narrow the outer limbs to get it bending a bit more and maybe drop it to 90# or so, hopefully I will find someone to shoot it at the flight shoots.
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This is a better look at the limb
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Awesome, it looks like my elm bow! I'm aiming for the exact same measurements, 26 inch drawlength, 60 inch bow... oh except my draw weight will be 40lb ;D ;)... The best part is, I'd put my money on your bow to hold together at the end :P :laugh:
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Badger,,You picked up this gauntlet with the air and grace of a true master. Sterling effort cant wait to see someone shoot this thing.
My guess is the arrow just atomises upon loose and upsets the results of some far flung experiment at CERN.
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Well, I have the video but I don't have a clue how to post it. I drew the bow out to 27# and about 107# at which point the pulley pulled out of my tiller tree, I thought the bow broke. The challenge called for 26" and 100# so I made that. The bow still maintains 3/4" reflex. If anyone can walk me through how to post a video I will post it.
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My full draw pose
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THAT'S AWESOME STEVE!!!! 8)
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Downloading to You tube right now, will post a link when it finishes.
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HELL YES.
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what a beast, I hope you enjoy your prize for winning the bet badger. I would have to rig myself up some sort of huge crossbow to be able to use it without giving myself a hernia.
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That is pretty sweet!! Looks like a very clean piece of bodark. Is the belly dead flat or does it have a little radius to it?
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Belly is dead flat, Now I can go ahead and adjust the tiller and not worry if I come in a tad under. http://youtu.be/sk5bzfGcOr8 ( here is a link)
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Outstanding, Steve.
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Belly is dead flat, Now I can go ahead and adjust the tiller and not worry if I come in a tad under. http://youtu.be/sk5bzfGcOr8 ( here is a link)
Right side is alittle stiff
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Belly is dead flat, Now I can go ahead and adjust the tiller and not worry if I come in a tad under. http://youtu.be/sk5bzfGcOr8 ( here is a link)
Right side is alittle stiff
When I got the bow braced I was so close to draw weight I didn't want to take a chance on making any adjustments and comming in light,
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Definitely a pucker moment, way to go man
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Very nice Steve!! Heres a still pic of the full draw right before your pulley broke.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/null_zpsffb9efd5.png)
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Excellent bow Steve, congrats mate. Very impressive.
If it helps at all, most warbow guys use no more than about 14 strands of FastFlight, right up into the 150# bows. I don't know if a shorter bow makes any difference, but I wouldn't imagine so.
I went through the exact same confusion on my latest 125# self yew warbow - the string just kept stretching over and over again despite it being FastFlight and despite the strand number being common. It ended up being down to my Flemish twist - I was so used to making strings for bows in the 70# region that I just wasn't adding enough tension while laying in the loops, and it was those that were coming undone constantly. I tried again really pulling hard at every step of making the string and keeping the wax to a minimum and that string held. It's actually a 12 strand FastFlight string, with simple Flemish laid in loops at each end and sits on a 125# warbow with no stretching or slipping at all. Might be something to consider?
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WOW!!!! That thing is a beast.
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WOW!!!! That thing is a beast.
Will, I used a lot of strands because I knew it was going to stretch a lot on the first brace, after I had it braced and excersized it got a lot easier. The extra strands didn't help the stretch out like I had hoped.
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Belly is dead flat, Now I can go ahead and adjust the tiller and not worry if I come in a tad under. http://youtu.be/sk5bzfGcOr8 ( here is a link)
Classic vid- "Monster Bow Overwhelms Heavy Duty Tiller Tree Pulley". Ah, yes, defining moment in the History of Bowery. Sheez, this is takin' pucker factor to another level entirely… crackin' me up man.
Steve, you da man.. hmmm, should be expectin' a delivery from Adam sometime soon huh. ;) You deserve it.
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Well done Steve! That's 2 cool man!
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Amazing! And even better that it suvived the tiller tree breaking. Great job!
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Love it!
Good job Steve!
Guy
video reminded me of Ryoons Buckthorn war bow tearing Martys pully out of the floor at Martyjam 2013!
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That deserves a freakin standing ovation. To the fellow who was saying earlier that this thread lead to a anti-climatic end, there ya go! LOL The man about broke his bow press, broke his tiller, and still came out with a shooter in the end. Awesome video!
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It doesn't even look THAT strained either ???
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Steve
I was thinking earlier today that this bow would be good for flight. If you project the draw weight to 32", which is standard for a warbow, then this bow would be pulling around 135#. I would imagine the string tension must be pretty high.
P.S. I never had any doubt it could be done.
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CONGRATULATIONS Steve!!! Very well done! Even though I knew it was coming, I still had major pucker factor when your tiller tree let loose. Sweet Jesus. I was thinking you should maybe set up a double pulley to reduce the strain.
I think your tiller looks a wee bit uneven, with the right limb a bit stronger, but I believe getting perfect tiller with this type of highly stressed bow would be difficult. Osage is King, there is no doubt about it!
Even though it's past the 1 month deadline, I'd really like to send you one of my static recurves if you want it. You surely deserve it. I certainly feel obligated to stand behind my offer. Please send me your address in a PM, and I'll get started.
Once again, a big heart-felt congratulations!
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Adam, the reason the tiller is off because I was so close to weight when I braced it that I was afraid adjusting tiller would put me under, I plan to clean up the tiller and draw out to 28". Thank you for the kind words! Don't worry about the bow, I am swimming in bows right now, but I sincerely appreciate the offer. Once I clean the bow up and retiller I will post the results and hopefully have some chrono shots to show.
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Who is ever going to shoot it as it is right now??? I love your 'full draw shot' in the hand! ;D
Amazing that even with uneven tiller, it held together and even maintained some reflex. How much set did it take?
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Right after unstringing it shows 3/4" reflex, I started with 1 1/2". The bow had a huge sideways bend in one of the limbs, almost 3" that I had to heat out of it, that had me nervous. James is one of our flight archers who can draw 100#, I plan to tiller it out to 28 and stay as close to 100 as I can. I took a force draw on it. It starts at 5# per inch and after about 6" goes to 4.5# per inch, the last couple inches are closer to 5#.
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Scary to watch but well worth seeing, nicely done Badger. Glad it held together even after all that, look forward to seeing the chrono reading on the beast.
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Steve, I'm pretty sure you could balance the tiller and draw it further. Or balance it and pike it a couple of inches for bonus points. >:D
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Woooowee that was scary, especially after you just said, "going for broke" good thing there was a spoiler alert on here, I probably would have lost some weight real fast! Well done sir.
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Very cool Steve. I'm not gonna say that I thought all along it could be done. It sounded doable, but your having done it erases all doubts. Congrats. Very cool undertaking. And yes, Osage is KING!
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20 or so pages of arrogance and arguing before Steve turned this thread around into something positive. THANK YOU! Congratulations on building that beast of a bow Steve. Now what kind of arrows are you going to shoot out of it?
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Clint, that was a split off the stave you sent me last week. I have some western larch arrows spined at 80#, should be about right with a 75 grain broadhead and the arrow pass about 1/2" away from center.
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Clint, that was a split off the stave you sent me last week. I have some western larch arrows spined at 80#, should be about right with a 75 grain broadhead and the arrow pass about 1/2" away from center.
Guess what tree that was from......the monster osage! That is just to cool. I'm glad you turned it into a monster bow.
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Pretty scary end to that video. Pretty amazing that the bow survived the tillering tree failure. i'm sure the tiller will look a bit better as you get it out to 28 inches. I'm glad you succeeded.
Now who's going to make one out of white wood? Thread doesn't need any more controversy, but its still fun seeing bows that push the limits of what some think is or isn't possible.
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Wow! That was pretty impressive workmanship. Congratulations!
I've had a t tree break too. Scary.
Scared the daylights out of your dog, Steve.
Jawge
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B
Adam, the reason the tiller is off because I was so close to weight when I braced it that I was afraid adjusting tiller would put me under, I plan to clean up the tiller and draw out to 28". Thank you for the kind words! Don't worry about the bow, I am swimming in bows right now, but I sincerely appreciate the offer. Once I clean the bow up and retiller I will post the results and hopefully have some chrono shots to show.
b..b..but, I'm not swimming in bows! Hey, I helped him!... okay, I lied. Still, big of you to offer Adam and I for one would love one of your sticks. And really man, I miss your posts dude.
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Clint, that was a split off the stave you sent me last week. I have some western larch arrows spined at 80#, should be about right with a 75 grain broadhead and the arrow pass about 1/2" away from center.
Guess what tree that was from......the monster osage! That is just to cool. I'm glad you turned it into a monster bow.
I knew it!! Too cool Clint. And very soon, (in the groveling sequel to this Master display) I hope to post my first stave bow, also made from 'The Monster Osage'. The 'sister' to Badger's Monster is now at floor tiller. Steve is guiding me all along the way. She will be 'Mini-Monster', 69" shooting for 50-55#. Needless to say, I feel pretty dang confident in the wood AND the Teacher. ;D
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Ok, thank God, this done with, and proven. And not so much as a Nyah, N'yah, N'yah, in your face, either. Now..... lets see the "MAN" that is going to shoot this thing! :o And then get back to the boring, beautiful bows! ;)
I had to skip from the teens, to page 26, and then go backwards, to see what was progressing.
Wayne
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Whitewood eh........keep yours eyes peeled >:D
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I'll always take my hat off to those who come up with the goods ;D.
You have nothing to prove to anyone, so I'd say go ahead and tiller it down a tad to suit your draw weight/length and see how far you can ping out an arrow.
Prob' with flight shooting is you can't see it on video, heck it's hard enough trying to watch an arrow go when you are shooting it yourself!
Del
(can I put my hat back on now?)
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Congrats Steve,very well done. :)
Pappy
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alls well that ends well...and adb...good of you to stand by the wager and offer the bow...badger......better of you to build that puppy and decline the bow...nice work right there!!!!
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Steve made this bow out of Osage but any decent bow wood will do the same thing. The trick is not so much in the wood but in the man doing the tillering.
Now Pat, you need to up the scale a bit. Make that Elm bow a 120# :). I know it can be done
P.S. Now we can lay this short bow low draw-weight dog to rest, for those who didn't know any better that is
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Steve, you're my hero.
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video reminded me of Ryoons Buckthorn war bow tearing Martys pully out of the floor at Martyjam 2013!
+1...I remember that,n was gonna say the same thing...yikes!!!
Not only did it survive(for now anyways.. lol),what's more impressive is that it withstood a less than optimum tiller....
Thanks for doing this Steve.....I was hoping I didn't have too...I just don't have the time right now,or will have the time to make anything for awhile for that matter
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Great job Steve. Pucker moment for sure well done 8)
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Not being humble here but it does show that anyone with a little experience could have made it. I think I used a good design for that bow but the tiller was off, I am curious how much I can get out of it with a corrected tiller. It should hit 28" pretty easy once corrected. Anything over 90# will be fine.
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Woo, if you get that to 90# at 28" I'll bet that will spit a flight arrow a looooooooooooooong way.
Del
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Anybody with a little experience, a reinforced tiller tree and a bow press! :)
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Badger,,You picked up this gauntlet with the air and grace of a true master. Sterling effort cant wait to see someone shoot this thing.
My guess is the arrow just atomises upon loose and upsets the results of some far flung experiment at CERN.
Exactly! Very modestly done. "Anyway, that's it!" -- from the video.
Awesome. Can't wait to see someone shoot it!
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The hardest part about a bow like this is working outside my comfort zone. At 72" no problem. Even if I am working on a 50# bow with a design outside my comfort zone I have to be real careful. Knowing when to brace is the key. I often cut this real close, sometimes too close with no room for adjustment as is the cae with this bow. What I use for a guide in knowing when to brace is real simple. I treat a bow on the long string just like I do a bow fully braced. I find out how much it gains per inch of draw and know from experience if it is drawing 80#@20" on a long string it will still weigh about 80# @20" when braced and drawn that far. There is one factor that has to be closely monitored, if the design is good and the wood is not breaking down much we won't loose much weight from added compression as we draw the bow further. In an unfamiliar design we don't know for sure how much weight we are going to loose from compression so it is best to be on the safe side and brace the bow where it projects out to be about 15# heavier than we want. This particular bow didn't loose much but I had no way of knowing for sure so I braced it a tad early thinking I may not have room for tiller adjustment and still make weight. In hind sight I could have made a bit more adjustments but didn't want to take a chance.
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Either way, well done. 8) Glad everyone stood by their commitments, and nice of you to forgo his bow also. Point proven, and no one lost a an eye, or tooth. ;) Now......... drum roll....... When are we going to see the Sasquatch that is going to shoot that thing? Or are going just drop the weight down to a reasonable hunting weight. Were those some edited words I heard when that thing let loose? ;) ;D ;D Maybe you need to send it to Australia and let the Lady who shoots those heavy ELB's, shoot it! ;) Let her make us look like wimps! I admit it, I sure couldn't pull it back to shoot it.
I couldn't even brace it!
Wayne
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Top Five All-Time Bad@ss Movie Quotes:
#5) "I'll be back!" -- Schwarzenegger, The Terminator (1984)
#4) "Say hello to my little friend!" --Pacino, Scarface (1983)
#3) "Go ahead, make my day!" --Eastwood, Sudden Impact (1983)
#2) "I love the smell of napalm in the morning.." --Duvall, Apocalypse Now (1979)
and #1) …
"Anyway, that's it!" --Badger, The Showdown (2014)
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To quote badger:
In an unfamiliar design we don't know for sure how much weight we are going to loose from compression so it is best to be on the safe side and brace the bow where it projects out to be about 15# heavier than we want.
Awesome advice and awesome bow!
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There is a good change to this thread. Best movie one liners.
"Deserves got nothing to do with it" Clint Eastwood - The Unforgiven
Got to love some Eastwood!!!!!! >:D
Knapper
PS. We all deserverd to see this bow built after reading this thread. Thanks Badger
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All possible. Last winter I built a 100# Osage selfbow 69” ntn with a 9-1/2” handle it was drawn to 30” shooting I think 380 yds in flight and I think 312yds in broadhead breaking the record. No it was not me shooting the bow I’m a weakling! Nice bow Mark!
Going back and reading a bit. Well done Steve. This thing is old.
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Love it when a story has a happy ending.
Bjrogg
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Wow... That was a 28 page emotional roller coaster LOL! thats a nice bow badger pulled off!!