Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Del the cat on January 20, 2014, 02:21:33 pm
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I have some Yew that isn't suitable for a self bow (som nasty knots and poorly defined heart/sap)and I'm toying with doing some experimental Yew lam' bows, with 1/4 sawn lams.
Do I use bandsaw or table saw, what type blade? The table saw needs a new blade, most rip blades are coarser than a navvy, but I've seen one described as a veneer blade with fine teeth.
This is all just armchair bowmaking at the moment ;)
Del
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If you have a decent band-saw then that is the one to use
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i would always use a tablesaw with a "trapeze" cutting tooth, the amount of tooh on your blades depends on the radius of your blade.
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If you have a decent band-saw then that is the one to use
Cheers Marc,
Presumably I'd want as wide as possible and a medium tpi? (Too fine will take all day, too coarse will give ma a washboard cut)
Del
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i would always use a tablesaw with a "trapeze" cutting tooth, the amount of tooh on your blades depends on the radius of your blade.
:laugh: I can see this thread will have plenty of different opinons :laugh:
I think my bandsaw is prob better quality/ more easilly adjustable than my table saw which is the cheapo variety...
I'll sit back, look and learn :)
Del
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I am in the same position as you Dell, I have some yew lumber fit for lams, but havent cut any before. My thought was to use the band saw, with medium teeth on a wide blade, and setup a featherboard and fence. Then cut slow. Less loss of material over a table saw is why I was leaning towards bandsaw. I plan to hit the glue-up side with a toothing plane to take out any high spots and create a good glue up surface. I am looking forward to hearing how yours goes. It might be another month or so before I get to these yew boards myself.
I havent checked in on your blog in awhile....need to. :)
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I cut a lot of lams. I use a resaw blade on my bandsaw... 3-4 tpi, and 5/8" wide, with a ripping fence. I can cut whatever thickness I want, and the wide blade tracks very well with the fence. To prep them for glue-up, I run the lams thru my thickness sander with a 100 grit drum to make them flat and smooth for gluing with TB3.
I used to use a table saw, which makes reasonably smooth cuts, but I soon realised half of my wood was turning into saw dust with the thick blade.
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as I don't have a hi end bandsaw I use a tablesaw with a thin kerf blade the take all the marks out with a thickness plainer, if I ciuld do it on the bandsaw I would, it's quieter and safer
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Del
If you have a good heavy bandsaw use it .
3-4 teeth per inch, and as wide as will work on your saw .
How are you planning to clean them up, and will you be doing tapered lams or straight?
A good belt sanding machine I hope .
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As this is all just armchair bowmaking at the moment, so it includes making my own thickness sander or adapting my belt sander ;D.
In reality I've got to sort out my Yew staves that aren't suitable for longbows and plan what I actually want to do.
A friend gave me some Hickory backing lams... and I'm sort of thinking flight longbow, Hick' backed Yew.
I got over 300 yards last year... so 350 would be nice :o
I have ideas for crossbow prods too and bows with highly angled levers etc.
Like most of us I expect I have more ideas than time!
I'm trying to avoid wasting timber, hence the question. Next time I order any bandsaw blades I'll get a nice wide one. I'll also examine my belt sander to see if it will lend itself to being bodified to work as a thickness sander.
I've got an old electric planer too, maybe that could be modified as a thicknesser or sander. Once I've worked out how to cut parallel lams I'll have a look at making some tapered ones.
At the moment everyone wants self Yew warbows, which would be fine if I had the wood, but I don't!
I want to spend some time making the bows I want to experiment with. Mostly I'm into self bows, but we just gotta try everything haven't we? :laugh:
Not much room in my workshop either... and I don't think Mrs Cat :-* will let me bring the woodworking indoors :(
Del
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If it helps persuade any potential customers, a lot of the EWBS guys are mainly shooting backed yew warbows these days. Hickory and elm mostly, but some maple. They're far more common amongst the top guys than self yews.
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I have both, but for cutting lams thin kerf blade tablesaw. A sharp well turned bandsaw will work just as well..... ;)
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I use a 1/4" blade with 6 tpi and finely adjusted. It will cut anything and can even cut strips down to 1/16" thick. I don't think a tablesaw will do that
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Del, I cut a 1/2 dozen backing strips this morning on my bandsaw. I use the cheap 1/2 blase with 3 or 4 teeth, the fewer teeth the better. Before you start carefully adjust your saw and make sure the blade is running down the center of the top pulley. Many saws even when perfectly adjusted still require finding the angle of drift for a better quality of cut. Very easy to do. Draw a line of a cheap piece of wood and start pushing it through your saw following the line, when you have run about 4 or 5 inches straight hold your wood still and turn off the saw. Now look and see what angle you are holding the board. If it is perfectly straight your fence will work fine, if not they adjust your fence to the same angle you were holding the board. It will increase your feed time and greatly improve the quality of your cut.
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Del, I cut a 1/2 dozen backing strips this morning on my bandsaw. I use the cheap 1/2 blase with 3 or 4 teeth, the fewer teeth the better. Before you start carefully adjust your saw and make sure the blade is running down the center of the top pulley. Many saws even when perfectly adjusted still require finding the angle of drift for a better quality of cut. Very easy to do. Draw a line of a cheap piece of wood and start pushing it through your saw following the line, when you have run about 4 or 5 inches straight hold your wood still and turn off the saw. Now look and see what angle you are holding the board. If it is perfectly straight your fence will work fine, if not they adjust your fence to the same angle you were holding the board. It will increase your feed time and greatly improve the quality of your cut.
Cheers, Good tip, that's one of those things I haven't done before 'cos normally I'm not usually trying to cut long and straight. :laugh:
The fence on my saw isn't much good so I'll clamp a nice long bit of 2x2 to the table.
Del
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I would use a table saw.
Didn't you have a carpenter nearby?
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I would use a table saw.
Didn't you have a carpenter nearby?
Essential to do the tip that Badger gave you.
I wouldn't trust no carpenter with my lam cutting!
Del it's not just about tpi and blade width.
I guarantee you one phone call to the guy at Tuffsaws, just google them seeing as we can't post links, will answer every question you may have. This guy has been making blades all his life and has now set up his own business. I thought I knew what I was talking about regarding bandsaw blades until I spoke to him! Highly recommended and very, very well priced for what you get. 3 different blades do every job I need doing.
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Mike, I just checked him out. Great prices!
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Cheers Mike :)
I'll look him up.
Del
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I just use a square to make sure everything is at 90 degrees, table to blade, table to fence
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As this is all just armchair bowmaking at the moment, so it includes making my own thickness sander or adapting my belt sander ;D.
In reality I've got to sort out my Yew staves that aren't suitable for longbows and plan what I actually want to do.
A friend gave me some Hickory backing lams... and I'm sort of thinking flight longbow, Hick' backed Yew.
I got over 300 yards last year... so 350 would be nice :o
I have ideas for crossbow prods too and bows with highly angled levers etc.
Like most of us I expect I have more ideas than time!
I'm trying to avoid wasting timber, hence the question. Next time I order any bandsaw blades I'll get a nice wide one. I'll also examine my belt sander to see if it will lend itself to being bodified to work as a thickness sander.
I've got an old electric planer too, maybe that could be modified as a thicknesser or sander. Once I've worked out how to cut parallel lams I'll have a look at making some tapered ones.
At the moment everyone wants self Yew warbows, which would be fine if I had the wood, but I don't!
I want to spend some time making the bows I want to experiment with. Mostly I'm into self bows, but we just gotta try everything haven't we? :laugh:
Not much room in my workshop either... and I don't think Mrs Cat :-* will let me bring the woodworking indoors :(
Del
Hey, Del... try hard maple backed yew... it makes some amazing warbows. I've used this combo up to 120#. I have made some with hickory backing, but I was getting more set.
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I've been ripping through the table saw then running them through the planer.
With bamboo a jointer and belt sander works well to give yah a nice taper
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I would use a table saw.
Didn't you have a carpenter nearby?
Essential to do the tip that Badger gave you.
I wouldn't trust no carpenter with my lam cutting!
Del it's not just about tpi and blade width.
I guarantee you one phone call to the guy at Tuffsaws, just google them seeing as we can't post links, will answer every question you may have. This guy has been making blades all his life and has now set up his own business. I thought I knew what I was talking about regarding bandsaw blades until I spoke to him! Highly recommended and very, very well priced for what you get. 3 different blades do every job I need doing.
I agree Mike it is not just about size and teeth but we have to start were we are at
I did not want to spend an hour typing about band saw setup and blade quality
I think Del as some idea of those things , thanks for a source for good blades
Del show us what you have for a sander maybe we can give you some ideas
There are many ways to skin a cat as you know ! >:D :laugh:
As for armchair bow making there seams to be plenty of that , so don't spend long till you get to making dust .
Have fun
Guy
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Hi Del, I have cut many lams over the last few years...I have tried many ways...my humble opinion is, that unless you have an industrial/big bandsaw, then the table saw is your best option....so long as you have a good quality blade with as many teeth as possible.....If you take the time to set it up right you can get perfect lams every time, with hardly any cleaning up to do....
it will easily cut 1/16" lams
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Badger pretty well nailed it! You could try Youtube for cutting veneers on a bandsaw as well. Sounds like you are well on your way though! less teeth / inch is definitely the way to go. Too many teeth will have small gullets leading to sawdust clogging , overheating , and blade drift. The coarser teeth shouldn't give you a rough cut on rips. If it does ,it is likely because a tooth or two are set (bent for kerf) a little more than the rest .This will usually happen right at the weld. Find it and straighten it a bit if you are worried about it. With a good set up , even a modest (not crap) saw should give you good results. Try it on scrap first ,as always. Good luck!
BTW , the "veneer " blade for the table saw is for cutting veneered plywood, etc. No good fro making veneer. Too many teeth will clog the cut , burn the wood, warp it and your blade etc. etc.You need a good ripping blade with 24 teeth / inch no wobble and a zero clearance plate. A high quality saw is key here though. With this setup on my saw I can dial in very accurate thicknesses that can be glued up without resurfacing ( it's that smooth) . Constant feed rate and adequate support are necessary components as well. You can also cut a pair of tapered lams if you need with this set up quite easily.
I would still say the bandsaw is your best bet!
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I agree Mike it is not just about size and teeth but we have to start were we are at
I did not want to spend an hour typing about band saw setup and blade quality
I think Del as some idea of those things , thanks for a source for good blades
Del show us what you have for a sander maybe we can give you some ideas
There are many ways to skin a cat as you know ! >:D :laugh:
As for armchair bow making there seams to be plenty of that , so don't spend long till you get to making dust .
Have fun
Guy
There's a pic of my sander here, it can be tilted to the vertical position, which may then lend itself to fitting an adjustable plate/table underneath.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/slow-work.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/slow-work.html)
Del
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The Wood Slicer bandsaw blade from Highland Woodworking is a very good lam cutting blade. Markus.
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I have a link that shows how to build a lam grinder. Am I aloud to post it? Or let me know and I can pm u the link. I'm squiring everything I need ATM. Got the motor and other stuff. Just need a drum.
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O.k.... I can trust my carpenter, he ist a Bowyer too ;D
But I know a few carpenters (Tischler in German) who i would let cut my lams :-\
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I agree Mike it is not just about size and teeth but we have to start were we are at
I did not want to spend an hour typing about band saw setup and blade quality
I think Del as some idea of those things , thanks for a source for good blades
Exactly - so I let Del know that those aren't the only considerations and I gave him an expert contact who will be willing to talk to him at length about ALL the factors involved.
Surely this is better than just giving a quick answer? I'm only trying to help!
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did i something wrong? If so, i don't understand what, because my english ;)
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I agree Mike it is not just about size and teeth but we have to start were we are at
I did not want to spend an hour typing about band saw setup and blade quality
I think Del as some idea of those things , thanks for a source for good blades
Exactly - so I let Del know that those aren't the only considerations and I gave him an expert contact who will be willing to talk to him at length about ALL the factors involved.
Surely this is better than just giving a quick answer? I'm only trying to help!
Mike
Thanks for your post , it was a good one !
My reply was to give you an answer for my short reply and not to say you are wrong for you were not . Thanks for your input the more we all input the more sure the answers will become .
Del
That sander is not my idea of a perfect sander for lams but will work fine for backing strips and with a little extra effort maybe we can get a few lams off of it
Need to go, talk some more, maybe tomorrow
Guy
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bowa
nothing wrong that I can see.
sometimes too many quotes inside other quotes gets confusing.
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sometimes too many quotes inside other quotes gets confusing.
Indeed.
Some people need to make sure that their replies start after the very last bracketed quote and not inside the quote
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Del, I cut a 1/2 dozen backing strips this morning on my bandsaw. I use the cheap 1/2 blase with 3 or 4 teeth, the fewer teeth the better. Before you start carefully adjust your saw and make sure the blade is running down the center of the top pulley. Many saws even when perfectly adjusted still require finding the angle of drift for a better quality of cut. Very easy to do. Draw a line of a cheap piece of wood and start pushing it through your saw following the line, when you have run about 4 or 5 inches straight hold your wood still and turn off the saw. Now look and see what angle you are holding the board. If it is perfectly straight your fence will work fine, if not they adjust your fence to the same angle you were holding the board. It will increase your feed time and greatly improve the quality of your cut. But finding the blade angle will effect the cut quality substantially.
I second this to Jupiter and back, and also Adams post as well. For my preference, tablesaws are loud and dangerous, and if your gonna be doing it a lot, a bandsaw is the way to go. Haven't been doing this as long as some, I am just seconding the experiences of the more experienced on here. I use a woodslicer blade, it is a thin kerf 1/2" blade, my bandsaw is a 14" grizzly. I recently bought a 3/4" carbide resaw king, and I still prefer the woodslicer way more. I think I can't get the resaw king tensioned enough maybe. I also will recommend to definitely use a feather board, or something to keep the wood close to the fence. I make a feather board out of wood, they work great, a lot better than trying to hold the wood against the fence while your guiding. With a good woodslicer blade, if you can find the blade angle and set your fence to it (you can also clamp a wooden fence and wedge it to your normal fence if your fence doesn't adjust), you can get a cut quality good enough to glue up. I still like to sand with 80 grit though to help the glue up lams stick together.
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As this is all just armchair bowmaking at the moment, so it includes making my own thickness sander or adapting my belt sander ;D.
In reality I've got to sort out my Yew staves that aren't suitable for longbows and plan what I actually want to do.
A friend gave me some Hickory backing lams... and I'm sort of thinking flight longbow, Hick' backed Yew.
I got over 300 yards last year... so 350 would be nice :o
I have ideas for crossbow prods too and bows with highly angled levers etc.
Like most of us I expect I have more ideas than time!
I'm trying to avoid wasting timber, hence the question. Next time I order any bandsaw blades I'll get a nice wide one. I'll also examine my belt sander to see if it will lend itself to being bodified to work as a thickness sander.
I've got an old electric planer too, maybe that could be modified as a thicknesser or sander. Once I've worked out how to cut parallel lams I'll have a look at making some tapered ones.
At the moment everyone wants self Yew warbows, which would be fine if I had the wood, but I don't!
I want to spend some time making the bows I want to experiment with. Mostly I'm into self bows, but we just gotta try everything haven't we? :laugh:
Not much room in my workshop either... and I don't think Mrs Cat :-* will let me bring the woodworking indoors :(
Del
Hey, Del... try hard maple backed yew... it makes some amazing warbows. I've used this combo up to 120#. I have made some with hickory backing, but I was getting more set.
I have been getting less set on my maple backed bows compared to hickory or bamboo bows too. After about 15 bows maybe (maybe 12 or so) I am really thinking this maple I got has more spring back than other woods, at least in backing form.
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Knots, that extra spring back you are feeling is less damaged wood in the belly I am pretty sure. Maple has a bit more elasticity than hickory and makes a big difference in the condition of the belly wood. Last few weeks I have been working with hickory over osage, several tropicals, and cherry. The maple bows have been taking less set and performing better than the hickory backed. Chrono is broken but I can tell the difference in the sound when the arrow hits the target.
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I think hickory is a bit over powering for most belly wood, except maybe ipe. The maple backed yew bows I've made seem to be better (gasp!) than a yew selfbow. I've been a big fan of hard maple as a backing for a long time.
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And maple's lighter too, as a bonus! :)
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Del
how wide is your belt on the sander?
looks like at least four inches
so we should be able to split them down in width
that would provide table surface on each side of the belt to run a sled
Then build a sled that resembles a H beam, the edges of the H can slide on the table on each side of the belt and the lam can be double side taped to the bottom of the web
a couple of passes and it will be sanded to the thickness of the space between the web and the sand paper . You can do straight or tapered by how you set the web of the H beam, be sure to get the sides the same or you will have side to side taper.
make the sides tall enough that you can cut some hand holds in them to give you more control , we don't want you to accidentally tip it or you may get a dip from the wheel on the end gouging in. Making the beam longer than you think you will need will be some help with preventing tipping , just don't want to be to long to handle. Good thing is most lams get spliced at the handle.
Well like I said not the perfect machine to do them on but doable
have fun
hope some of what I said makes sense
Guy
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Cunning idea Buckeye :)
There are so many good ideas here I'm going to have to get out my armchair soon ;)
Actually once I've I've had my tea and toast, it's out to the garage to put a roughed out Yew Warbow up on the tiller.... :laugh:
Del