Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: bubby on October 12, 2013, 05:24:53 am
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Well the gov just signed a bill to van all lead ammo for hunting, what do ya think will that will do to the price of a box of 22 shells, if you can get them
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Why would someone live there? ???
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I feel for ya bub and understand what its like to not be able to make your own choices anymore. Our once decent state
where I reside in the midwest has become such an embarrassment to me that I have to question why I stay here.
Family, home, friends and the fact that at my age I don't have the energy to start over again somewhere else are what keep me here.
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What?! So no lead weights for fishing, as well be that logic?
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From what I've heard the idea is to protect animals from lead poisoning, condors and the like, who may eat from the gut piles or remains of unclaimed game such as prairiedogs. I've never heard of it happening and find it to be tree huggers and animal rights activists just trying to hurt hunting any way they can.
I do support steel shot for waterfowl hunting, but this is getting ridiculous.
-Dan
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Is that just for waterfowl? Or everything? If it's everything, that's insane. Too right Eddie... why would anyone want to live there. Arnold has sprayed plenty of lead in his time... hypocrite.
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Not just for shotshells, all ammo.
-Dan
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Arnold isnt the Governor anymore.
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Hey Bub if you wanna jump ship on Cali you can come live in the unemployment wasteland next door! (Nevada) We've got some great scenery if you can get around how stupid a good number of the people here are.
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I love California, I was born and raised there, and my grandfather and great-grandfathers were born and raised there. It makes me so sad that such a great and majestic state is getting trashed by such incompetence. My Son was born in California and is 6th generation CA born. Not many people can claim that. My family ancestors moved to Northern CA back in the early 1850's during the gold rush and later with the logging industry. I am very sad that due to economic reasons I had to move my family away from such a rich history there. I would have loved to keep it going.
But politicians with screwed up goals and agendas feel the need to ruin anything that is good.
<steps down off rant box>
So how is the weather Bub? The heat should be receding and fall swooping in by now.
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This is exactly why I got into primitive archery. If you make everything yourself and someone takes it away then you just make another. As long as we have a wilderness to collect materials from, we'll be shooting.
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Why do we live here??? Because it's the most diverse, beautiful state in the country IMHO.. Problem is this very thing attracts ever nut case in in the world here so we get some of the worst law makers in the country.... I live in San Luis Obispo county and we have been on the non lead wagon for years (Condor protection) and I'm afraid that was the inch that emboldened the liberals to take the mile and move the ban into the whole state... Bubby we are paddling up stream I'm afraid, fight as we might we are out numbered in California.......
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I was born in LA lived everywhere between there and Bishop growing up until my folks settled in Reno Nevada, moved back to San Francisco a few years ago, then jumped ship on the coocoo nest and scrambled back to Nevada. I love visiting your state, and I love many of the people who make up the diverse culture there, but I'd be lying if I said I'd want to move back.
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sorry guys I posted this and took off hunting, i'm with Greg, to old to restart, kids are here, grandkids, my wife aint going anywhere with them all so close, here's a pic of one great reason to stay, coaster x 2 buddy(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt320/bubncheryl/ishi%20book/101_4358_zpsa66d9536.jpg) (http://s623.photobucket.com/user/bubncheryl/media/ishi%20book/101_4358_zpsa66d9536.jpg.html)
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I can see some reasoning behind the thing, like the pead laint that our houses were coated in and lead additives in gasoline and to top it all off a specially designated "Lead Work Area" on a California highway project! So why are we really picking on gun toters? Whose going to protect them during the zombie apocalypse? Why all of us illegal lead using gun toters! Where's Wayne LaPierre when you need him?
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Hey Bub if you wanna jump ship on Cali you can come live in the unemployment wasteland next door! (Nevada) We've got some great scenery if you can get around how stupid a good number of the people here are.
Yeah,
and the majority of them are Prunie transplants.
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While the anti-hunters are definitely looking to ban any ammunition, including potatoes and potato guns, there is valid science behind getting the lead out of hunting. I have read enough papers on the effects of lead in meat to be seriously concerned. Plus all the effects lead has on scavenger birds (including our national symbol, the bald eagle). Condors and vultures are particularly hard wired to swallow anything they come across that is hard/dense. It comes from their incredibly fast digestive systems, they have difficulty breaking down bone. Further, they eat meat and unlike other predatory birds their typical meat has bones too large to swallow...so if they come across something hard in the meat, they are programmed to swallow it. In a natural setting, it might be a bone fragment, in a modern situation with a gutpile, it may be a fragment containing lead.
Birds cannot withstand much lead in their bloodstream, it's significantly MORE toxic to them. Further, lead debilitates the central nervous system. They gotta master flying, and with any appreciable amount of lead in their system, they fail and fail EPIC.
I hear the NRA claim that the lead in poisoned raptors is natural lead in the environment, but there is yet to be any credible proof that this is the case. Lead comes in four isotopes. One isotope was commonly used in gasoline, another was found in some natural background levels, and two isotopes are typically found in mineable deposits that are sources for lead used in ammunition. Guess what two isotopes are the ones found in the blood/feathers/bones/tissue of lead poisoned raptors?
Take for example the Minnesota Raptor Center located on the campus of the University of Minnesota. They average 120 bald eagles PER YEAR and most years about 90 of those have lead levels bordering on toxicity. The eagles begin showing up the week after rifle deer season starts. Since nearly all lead based ammunition comes with copper jackets, they also tested for copper. If this was ammunition based lead poisoning there would be corresponding increases in blood copper levels. Yup, copper was there too.
I chose several years ago to switch to non-lead ammunition or to bury the gutpile of any animal taken with my muzzleloader. When my bullets stop moving I want them to stop killing. I am a conservationist. I am a conservationist like the radicals of their day, Teddy Roosevelt, Aldo Leopold, and the like. Sometimes you gotta learn new tricks if you want to preserve the traditions we currently have and hold dear. Once upon a time we had no limits on how many game animals we took. Once we killed for trophies and tongues. Once there was plenty for everyone. Once.
I'll be glad to share what I have learned with anyone willing to ask. No anti-hunting rhetoric here!
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That's why I like my .300 WnMg. No blood trail or bullet in the gut pile. :)
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The bullet in the gutpile is really a minor contributor. It's the lead that is shed from the bullet as it mushrooms. The smaller the fragment, the greater the surface area to volume ratio making it dissolve in the digestive tract faster and more complete. No lead bullet retains 100% weight, and it is the shed portion that remains in the tissues that throws in the monkey wrench. The better quality ammo manufacturers acknowledge this and work hard to bond the lead core to the copper jacket, but even the best ammo under the best condition sheds weight. And they shed weight at greater percentages at the higher speeds that better ammo is often pushed to.
The x-rays of shot animals show what is being called a "blizzard" of lead particulate because it resembles flakes of snow. These small flakes are small enough that you won't even feel them as you eat them. Compounding this is the body's reaction to lead once it is absorbed into the blood stream...there is no process that the body has that can eliminate lead. Once it is in your blood stream it cannot be eliminated, not by kidneys or the liver.
The switch to copper fixes that problem, a bird of prey or a human simply cannot eat enough copper to kill them!
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There are plenty of crazies here.....and some might include me in that group. Johnny Carson used to quip that the US was tilted and all the nuts rolled to California. The weather and outdoor opportunities can not be beat though.
As a former falconer and veterinarian who has treated various birds of prey for lead toxicity I can tell you that lead bullets definitely cause problems. I don't cry too much for the loss of an individual vulture, but the condors and falcons are limited in number and magnificent to see. All sorts of eagles and hawks are quite happy to eat "found" meat too and can get poisoned. So, the problem is real. You don't have to be a big fan of raptors to be depressed by seeing an eagle die of lead poisoning.
The response by politicians has been, as usual, to ignore it as long as possible and then go to the opposite extreme. Nothing new there and I'm sure some anti-hunting groups helped push the legislation in hopes it would further their agenda. I'm not sure would the best answer is, but I do know there's never been any lead in my arrows!
Ron
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Thanks JW
Now I know why I can't fly !!!!
My arrows do not contain traces of lead , But may contain traces of nuts !!
Keep your chin up California is scheduled to fall into the ocean any day now !!
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You know,sometimes these threads really chap my hide.I hear the same old slights about California from people,all the time on these threads.I wonder how many of them,have even been to Ca.Now im not saying the political circus in Ca is not something to abhor,but to judge the whole state and its people,for the actions of its politicians,is disheartening.
There are more than 1 California.There is Northern Ca,central Ca and Southern Ca.Completely different topography,with completely different cultures and political attitudes.Unfortunately,the majority of the population,lies in Centrall and southern,so they have the majority of the representation and therefore law passing abilities.Actually,there is a lot of disdain toward Southern Ca,by the Northern Californians.Why do you think there have been efforts in the past,to divide the state and there is a new effort going on as we speak.Look up,the State of Jefferson.The Northerners,call them Flatlanders.
We have the Same issues here in Nevada,probably because of the Southern Ca people,or Prunies as Nevadans call them, are infesting our state,and bring their political attitudes with them and vote like minded people into political offices.
What i think is funny,is that many people in Ca,are ashamed of the political representation of their state and that line of North Ca seems to creep further south every time,they are pressed to tell you where they came from.LOL
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Funny that you mention that Traxx, lol. My hometown I grew up in and where my parents still live, voted (in vain), to secede from the state last month, lol.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/09/04/northern-california-county-board-votes-for-secession-from-state/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/05/california-county-votes-for-secession-from-state-cites-overregulation/
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Yep, been there. I started out in Sacramento and worked my way south, visiting family and friends. I was ready to go back to Colorado after I went to LA.
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traxx your right it's not all bad here in Cali, I live in Red Bluff in Tehama Co and the average cutoff for most the people I know is Willows, because of the good duck and goose hunting, everything below is So Cal >:D, and scarhand there aint nothing like going to a football game in Yreka and watching the big bucks grazing on the field and riding bulls out at the Montague rodeo, always had fun up there
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Yep Bubby,
I consider it about where the State makes the big bend.There are a lot of little bergs south of that line,that fit in the Northern frame of mind,especially on the eastern side,but you hafta draw the line,somewhere.LOL
When were you ridin Bulls in Montague?
I may have been there with ya.Spent plenty of time in Redbluff as well.
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I was rodeoing back in the seventy's traxx, grew up hitting all those shows Montague,mccloud weed Etna anywhere, good times
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I was Rodeoin from bout 78 to 98.Had a break in between for about 5 years to run an outfit er two then cracked back out again .Wonder if we ever run into each other?
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Send me a pm and we'll talk traxx
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been to cali once...made it back to texas as fast as i could,, surprised bowman hasnt chimed in at all,probably out cutting wood.... wait,,,thats illegal there too! lol
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excellent article on lead poisoning.
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=1508#top
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That is a great article, especially the quotes from the pro-hunting organizations.
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Yep. I was told about it from a friend of mine who I jokingly call a "tree hugging druid". She pointed out a similar article in a magazine called "Wyoming wildlife". I am an avid hunter (bow and rifle) and have switched to all copper for hunting. I don't like people being forced to buy copper only since you can bury the gutpile eliminating this problem as well. The first and best conservationist were/are hunters, I just like the wild too much to be a hindrance to its well being.
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JW I understand where you're coming from with protecting the raptors (Especially since mine is a dunce and likes to attack gut piles instead of rabbits) which is why when I take game with a rifle, or shotgun I don't leave a gut pile (I know its gross) but I put all of the guts I pull out into a plastic bag, seal it up and stuff it into my pack, then I transfer it into a cooler in camp, then back at home I bury those guts into my garden (Yep I'm one of those hippy types with a garden get over it).
I still find it upsetting to be required to use steel shot for upland game birds since it beats the heck out of my barrels. (For rifle I generally use copper or preferably turned brass...I'm picky)
Anyway... back into my corner to eat more paste ::)
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JW I understand where you're coming from with protecting the raptors (Especially since mine is a dunce and likes to attack gut piles instead of rabbits) which is why when I take game with a rifle, or shotgun I don't leave a gut pile (I know its gross) but I put all of the guts I pull out into a plastic bag, seal it up and stuff it into my pack, then I transfer it into a cooler in camp, then back at home I bury those guts into my garden (Yep I'm one of those hippy types with a garden get over it).
I still find it upsetting to be required to use steel shot for upland game birds since it beats the heck out of my barrels. (For rifle I generally use copper or preferably turned brass...I'm picky)
Anyway... back into my corner to eat more paste ::)
I switched from paste to hide glue. Doesn't stick to the roof of my mouth! :laugh:
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Ahhh, Governor Moon Beam....... What a rocket scientist he is. I think he has been too busy as of late, staring at the little turn table in the microwave, while wearing his tinfoil hat.
I for one will not use steel shot. While I mostly agree with the lead debate, I do not agree with the blanket, one size fits all, reactions. I still use lead shot, and there was for awhile a lot of companies using coated lead shot, but then the bans went nuts. As for ducks, it mainly is the diving ducks that ingest the lead. I always cut out a large portion of meat around the wound channel, and that is buried, or bagged, and put in the garbage. The steel shot will damage your barrel, and it just doesn't have the velocity retaining ability of lead, and nor does it have the same impact, or shock qualities of lead. It does not expand, on impact. There are a whole lot more injured, and maimed birds from steel shot, than ever from lead shot. I will agree with a lead ban in management areas, but again, it is mostly the diving ducks that are affected with eating lead. There are coatings that are available for lead shot. We all have our passions with hunting, and non hunting in the outdoors. I just don't think a state wide ban is necessary. Put it where the condors, and other raptors are prevalent, not the entire state. I don't hunt management areas that have a lead ban. I will not shoot steel in my guns. The shells are prohibitive in costs, and no near as effective as lead. Just my personal opinion. I think a bigger problem would be Mexico's use of DDT on their crops. DDT doesn't go away. You can still find lumps of it in the Mississippi river. Funny we can't use it here, but we can import crops soaked in it. The animals,and other pests that eat the crops, have it, and the predators that eat those animals have it. Lead is a toxic product no doubt, but there are ways around that other than steel, or outright bans.
Wayne
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yeah Wayne I'm with you to a point, I use what's leagal and use steel shot on waterfowl, we have had a lead ban in the condor zones for years, the funny thing about this is lead won't be banned for target shooting at gun ranges, the areas that will have the highest concentrations of lead, last I read they were still having trouble with DDT in some areas of condor range, as far as moonbeam he's to worried about building his legacy, aka the bullet train but I wont get into that mess, bub
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Ahhh, Governor Moon Beam....... What a rocket scientist he is. I think he has been too busy as of late, staring at the little turn table in the microwave, while wearing his tinfoil hat.
I for one will not use steel shot. While I mostly agree with the lead debate, I do not agree with the blanket, one size fits all, reactions. I still use lead shot, and there was for awhile a lot of companies using coated lead shot, but then the bans went nuts. As for ducks, it mainly is the diving ducks that ingest the lead. I always cut out a large portion of meat around the wound channel, and that is buried, or bagged, and put in the garbage. The steel shot will damage your barrel, and it just doesn't have the velocity retaining ability of lead, and nor does it have the same impact, or shock qualities of lead. It does not expand, on impact. There are a whole lot more injured, and maimed birds from steel shot, than ever from lead shot. I will agree with a lead ban in management areas, but again, it is mostly the diving ducks that are affected with eating lead. There are coatings that are available for lead shot. We all have our passions with hunting, and non hunting in the outdoors. I just don't think a state wide ban is necessary. Put it where the condors, and other raptors are prevalent, not the entire state. I don't hunt management areas that have a lead ban. I will not shoot steel in my guns. The shells are prohibitive in costs, and no near as effective as lead. Just my personal opinion. I think a bigger problem would be Mexico's use of DDT on their crops. DDT doesn't go away. You can still find lumps of it in the Mississippi river. Funny we can't use it here, but we can import crops soaked in it. The animals,and other pests that eat the crops, have it, and the predators that eat those animals have it. Lead is a toxic product no doubt, but there are ways around that other than steel, or outright bans.
Wayne
Steel shot in shotshells is comparable to lead shot pricewise. There are premium lead rounds that are actually more expensive than average steel prices, but what you are doing there is comparing a Ferrari to a Dodge Caravan, too. As far as ammo prices in rifle rounds, this is also true. The copper ammo that you are looking at is premium ammo and comparing it to run of the mill ammo is not a fair comparison. Premium trophy grade lead core ammo is more expensive quite often than the quality copper ammo. And most of us do not use a half a box of shells in a hunting season, so the cost per deer (or antelope, elk, axis deer, collared peccary, or wascally wabbit) really is negligable. Buy one less six pack of craft beer and you saved the difference and then some. In the grand scheme of hunting, the ammunition is really the smallest part of the bill.
As for coatings for lead shot, that's like painting your windows white and putting a coat over your head to protect from nuclear fallout. Lead shot in the bird's crop gets ground with the grit in their diet and they digest it whether it is copper clad or not. It's a gimmick.
If you don't like steel, I can't blame you. There is better non-lead ammo out there. Many of the non-lead alternatives now are even superior to lead, tighter patterning, greater sectional density, better retained energy, etc.
And I agree with the ban being a bad choice. All it is doing is making people so mad they will not listen to the science. In the end, I bet it does more to set back conservation than improve it.
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it always does >:( ^^^^^
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<snip>In the end, I bet it does more to set back conservation than improve it.
It seems that whatever we oblige Government to do for us, will invaribly be done in the most expensive, least effective, and most freedom depriving manner possible.
OneBow
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And that is why I made the conscious choice to switch to non-lead ammunition or in the case of my flintlock, make the effort to either carry out the gutpile or bury it deep on the spot. MY ammunition will not contribute to sick or dead birds of prey. No one is telling me to do it, I am a conservationist, I do it because it is the right thing to do.
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but you had the choice jdub, you made the decision, therein lies the differance
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Yes, I made that choice because I could not ignore the facts and the problems associated with lead in the environment. It was an easy choice, it was simply the right thing to do. But what about those that are aware of the problem and do not chose to do something about it?
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they should be forced?? :-\ cause im sure the folks makin the laws follow all of them..slippery slope j dub.
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they should be forced?? :-\ cause im sure the folks makin the laws follow all of them..slippery slope j dub.
That opens the discussion between legal and ethical. Laws tend to get passed when not enough people are following the ethical pathway. Once upon a time we hunters were allowed to take as many game animals as we wanted (not needed...WANTED). Eventually, it became evident that numbers were crashing and in some cases some game was completely gone. Laws had to be passed because people did not willingly rein themselves in.
Teddy Roosevelt, one of the killingest hunters out there (read about the game killing spree he went on in the Yellowstone area after the death of his wife) was one of the loudest to shout in favor of game reservations, later called National Parks, and for seasons and limits for hunting.
This is the opportunity for the conservation and hunting community to step up to the plate and make the meaningful changes ourselves. If we leave it to the anti-hunting community to push legislation you get what California has. California was your wake-up call.
Copper rifle rounds are different than lead, always better than bargain ammo, and often better than premium lead ammo. Why not see what you can do?
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Funny you brought up Teddy as in his zelousness to protect he caused the starvation deaths of thousands of animals by not this.kit.g things thru, witch is want we have with this law
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Early conservation laws were flawed and the science lagged behind the good intentions. But I know you aren't in favor of lifting all limits and seasons just because 100 years ago they hadn't figured out what habitat carrying capacity was all about.
Likewise, I don't think people use lead ammo because they want their national symbol, the bald eagle, to eat lead fragments and die of lead poisoning. My point is that if we, the hunters and conservationists, take the necesary steps to prevent unnecessary by-kill, then the anti's won't be able to dictate the position those in California find themselves in.
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never meant for that to sound like an attack jdub,,if it did, please forgive.
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never meant for that to sound like an attack jdub,,if it did, please forgive.
Nope, didn't take it that way at all, just wanted to clarify a point.
Can you imagine the heat T.R. took when he started arguing that there had to be limits on game? People came out of the woodwork ranting that after he had done all he could to shoot everything that walked, ran, crawled, flew, or wiggled NOW he wanted to endorse conservation of a limited natural resource. Fact is, the world around us is changing, we know more now then we used to, and we have to make best efforts today with what we have to work with.
'Sides, my Zwickey's are utterly lead free! Not that it matters much because 4 weeks into season I have yet to get out other than about 45 minutes one evening.
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lol zwickeys it is then..and copper.
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no I don't want wanton killing going on, I just wish it was thought out better even our fish and wildlife didn't back it as written, anyway I'm just a dumbass redneck and I'm gonna drop out of this topic before the water gets to deep and let all you guys hash it out
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This is the kind of topic that usually goes South pretty quick,that for keeping it
nice. :) " laws were flawed and the science lagged behind the good intentions."
That's the problem with most laws/legislation or at least a lot of them. ;) :) JW.
I will say unless they come up with wood/cain/steel or stone is poisoning I'm
good to go. Al tho it can be deadly and very harmful to the critters health. ;) ;D ;D ;D Got to keep it light. ;)
Pappy
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The overwhelming expectation of this site is to "keep it nice". And I appreciate how everyone supports that.
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I wonder how no lead will affect the role your own crowd. Especially the guys who pour their own also.
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The purist muzzleloading crowd is pretty small. In SD, they figure less than 4 percent of all muzzleloading tags are filled by people shooting traditional roundball. The modern sabot are really a modified high caliber pistol round and I don't know if they will develop enough fps to deploy correctly if they were solid copper. But I think that is something coming down the pipe as I hear that copper shotgun slugs are available and showing amazing downrange lethality.
I have a tag for muzzleloading season. I will (attempt) to take a deer with my flintlock and lead roundballs. But I will be burying the gutpile and covering with brush as well to discourage birds from feeding on it. Coyotes are likely to find it and dig it up, but being mammals there is much less effect on their systems.
I did find a source of non-lead roundballs. Well, not exactly round, they have a bit of a "belt" around the middle. I messaged the manufacturer and they have not responded. I am trying to get some more information and I would certainly try them.
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Well, if it ever gets that bad I hope someone will take care of us guys shooting odd size balls. I've got to pour mine for .47 cal.
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Well, if it ever gets that bad I hope someone will take care of us guys shooting odd size balls. I've got to pour mine for .47 cal.
Re bore to fifty! ;)
Wayne
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Not this collector barrel. ;D
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Confirms what many of us have suspected for a great while now. Mullet is in the odd ball camp.
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Confirms what many of us have suspected for a great while now. Mullet is in the odd ball camp.
Thank Goodness he's the only one! Right?
Ron
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Doing all I can to look innocent and pure here.
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yeah right...mullet is the ONLY oddball here. (gets in line behind him).. >:D