Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Limbit on September 11, 2013, 05:10:32 am
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Hello, I have been making bows now for many years, but just recently started making ELB-style bows. I have no experience shooting a bow like this and from what I can read about the traditional use of it online, it has a specific way of being fired using body weight rather than arm strength. I recently made an 85lbs Ipe ELB and and having a hell of a hard time pulling it to full draw around 28inch. I am well fit and used to use a a shorter 70lbs juniper/boo bow with no real problems, so it surprised and impressed me to find I couldn't even draw it briefly. Any advice or any good links you could refer me to? I have been searching the net and coming up empty on a really good tutorial that will allow me to begin to practice with it. I thought maybe the fact that I am using Ipe might have something to do with it as well since it is so tight-grained, but I am not sure about that at all. Thank you for any of your advice in advance!!
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Hi mate. First off, I'm no expert so bear with me. I'm sure some far more experienced warbow guys will help out but until then I'll offer the little advice I can.
It's worth making sure you know what it is you're after. An ELB is not by definition a high weight bow. A 50# Victorian style longbow can be called an ELB. I think what you are referring to is an English War Bow. These bows were designed purely to throw very heavy 1/2" arrows a LONG way with enough force to punch through plate armour. Lots of research has been done and it seems that the optimum bow weight for this task is somewhere between 100 and 150# at a full draw length of 32". An 85# bow is right on the lower limit of war bow weights, so once you've learned and developed the true war bow technique you should find it very easy!
As for the technique itself, studying videos and watching guys do it for real is the best way by far. Try seaching YouTube for warbow technique videos - a very good one was uploaded by Nick Birmingham called Distance Shooting with the English War bow. When compared to drawing a normal weight bow, there is much more rotational movement of the drawing arm, often coming up and over the head in a circle to fully engage the back and shoulders.
A lot of warbow guys at the moment are adopting the rolling loose, which involves the entire body dipping towards the ground and rolling the weight back onto the rear leg while the bow rolls up to full draw. Terrible explanation but again look on YouTube for Rolling Loose and there should be a couple of videos of Glennan Carnie showing it perfectly with a full labelled explanation. Bear in mind it's a very exaggerated looking technique and lots of people think it's over the top and will laugh hysterically at you...
Also worth looking on YouTube for videos of Joe Gibbs. He's currently shooting a 170#@32" war bow these days, and there is a great video uploaded by "40bowyr" of him popping off a dozen livery arrows from the 170lb bow. Very impressive and a very smooth technique. I'll try and find these vids and post them on here.
Hope this helps a bit. Don't worry about the ipe being overly tricky, once you hit 100# you'll miss your gentle 85# bow ;-)
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Joe Gibbs, 170lb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-2KLuAH4GY
Distance shooting technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dypwMBbHkkU
Glennan Carnie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0-g3Y1yLlQ
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IMO.
Forget the rolling loose and leaping about for the moment.
Start with both hands low near your left hip. As you swing your arms up and back/out, both arms will be contributing to the draw.
(Some people go high first and then come back/down)
There is a big difference between drawing to the chin, the jaw and then right back beyond the jaw for a full medieval "in the bow draw".
Bear in mind that 80# at 32" will be a lot easier to pull for the first 3/4 than a bow that is 80# at 28" as it isn't up to full weight as it comes through the 28" mark.
At short draw lengths (like to the chin) you are fighting the bow and holding the full draw weight.
At a longer draw your limbs can go 'over centre' (over center) like one of those toggle catches on a jar or suitcase.
I'll explain:-
Drawing to 32" you right hand/forearm can be pulling back high, on a level with your eye or forehead.
You reach a point where the right elbow starts coming down in an arc to end up with your right thumb near your collar bone. Coming down in the arc is giving you added leverage and that 'over centre' action.
Your elbow/hand moves down in an arc say 9" long, but only pulls the string back 3", that's effectively giving you a 3:1 leverage! :)
Another way of looking at it:- Your upper arm is acting like the cam on a compound! (spits on floor)
'This is called coming over the hill' (so I've been told... none of this is my invention, but it's stuff I've found feels good to me)
Getting that early bit of draw is about confidence and momentum.
When I was a young kid, all adolescent boys had Charles Atlas chest expanders :laugh:, you if you held 'em across your chest and heaved, there was no way you could stretch 'em >:(. BUT if you started with 'em down by your knees and heaved up and out breathing in and throwing yourself into it... oh yes! :laugh:
Like most things its timing and confidence.
One last thing... it's always easier to draw a bow with an arrow on the string :o...! You are focussing on the arrow/target etc, not worrying about 'can I draw it?' 'will I over draw/underdraw?' etc
BTW. I think the 'thumb under the back of the jaw' anchor is a good compromise. You can still use a slight 'over the hill' draw but your aim is still very normal. A full medieval draw feels mad, as you have no idea where the back of the arrow and your anchor is until you've done it a fair bit... then your eye/brain slowly zones in and you can hit stuff smaller than a barn door again.
Hope that makes sense.
Del
Regarding the rolling loose, very very few people do it right, it is supposed to be about loosing at the instant you hit full draw with added forward momentum. Some supposedly good exponents of it hold at full draw for an age and then leap forward in an exagerated manner long after the arrow has gone.
My advice, keep it smooth and simple, if it looks silly, it probably is!
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The rolling loose feels controlled to me... ;-)
One thing I will add is not to think "chin...jaw...beyond jaw" as a set of anchor points. Del explained it very well, with the thumb coming close to the collar bone, but just to take it one step further, I found the easiest way to complete the 32" draw is to think about bringing your draw arm to your upper chest rather than through a set of more comfortable/familiar anchor points. It ends up using a new set of muscles that target archery only touches on.
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,42178.0.html
Check this out. Pics and everything.
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Ok, I don't proffess to be a great exponent of shooting a heavy bow, but here's a link to a blog post of me shooting a 90# @28
You can see I slow up as I hit the wall, then I come over the hill for the last inch or so and it's loosed.
It's NOT a long draw but it shows how technique can help the last few inches.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/much-better-draw_22.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/much-better-draw_22.html)
Other thing to note is I'm shooting at a low target not up at 45 degrees for distance
It was a few years back. I'm make a 120# @ 32" in November and hoping to maybe train myself up to master itat least for a few shots.
Of course 120@32" is prob about 110# at 28" so it will be tough.
Any comments will be received with interest.
Del
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Looks fine Del. Heck, if the bow uses the whole arrow, and the thing comes out going where it's meant to go, who cares what you're doing?
If I had to find one thing to comment on, I'd say you could use the rear leg more, pushing the weight over it. You start your draw perfectly well, but the hips and legs don't move once you hit centre. It's obviously different shooting flat at a target to shooting 45 degrees for distance, but the more weight you roll onto your back leg the smoother it feels getting to the "wall." That being said, once you're there you're doing what you need to do, expanding the chest to finish the last inch. If it's comfortable, accurate and you're not straining muscles needlessly, why change?
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Ok, I don't proffess to be a great exponent of shooting a heavy bow, but here's a link to a blog post of me shooting a 90# @28
You can see I slow up as I hit the wall, then I come over the hill for the last inch or so and it's loosed.
It's NOT a long draw but it shows how technique can help the last few inches.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/much-better-draw_22.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/much-better-draw_22.html)
Other thing to note is I'm shooting at a low target not up at 45 degrees for distance
It was a few years back. I'm make a 120# @ 32" in November and hoping to maybe train myself up to master itat least for a few shots.
Of course 120@32" is prob about 110# at 28" so it will be tough.
Any comments will be received with interest.
Del
120#@32" would be more like 100#@28". Usually 5# per inch for heavy bows from my experience.
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@abd good point, maybe I'm in with a chance of shooting 120# :laugh:
Mind I've got a couple of slightly lighter long draw bows on the book too so I'll have a chance to get into it.
One guy (Taxi Dave) has potentially a huge draw. He's a taxi driver and his arms are sooo long he has to drive from sitting in the back ;)
Del
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Don't get me started on Taxi Dave , Del >:( He's still fiddling about with a pile of "sticks" he's had mounted on his chimney breast for the last 10 years....Hector Cole heads, but otherwise a handful of low quality Poplar bananas! LOL Being a good Christian, I sprang forward (ever the "helpful Harry") and loaned him a nice set of 33" ash shafted standard arrows. This was last Saturday over the field and he was banging them out to 200yds no problem first six shots. I had a good look at his action and I reckon he could end up needing 34-35" shafts once he tidies his draw up......bugga! Talk about the genetic lottery!!! :laugh:
p.s. Might see you on the field on Sunday morning.....its gambeson weather for sure! ;)
JayTee
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Thank you so much! I was having a hell of a time finding good information. I'll give it a go and see if I run into any complications.
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Just an added note of explanation.
If you can draw 70# at 28" then if you just go to 70# at 32" the extra 4" will actually give over 20% extra energy! So even the same poundage at the long draw is a huge advantage, especially if you want to shoot the heavy medieval arrows.
Del
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Just an added note of explanation.
If you can draw 70# at 28" then if you just go to 70# at 32" the extra 4" will actually give over 20% extra energy! So even the same poundage at the long draw is a huge advantage, especially if you want to shoot the heavy medieval arrows.
Del
I agree. The amount of time the string acts on the arrow is a great determinate of cast. I learned this lesson this summer. I was shooting my warbow, 90#@30" and Cam was shooting his warbow, 88#@30". Cam increased his draw length by 1" (shooting 31" arrows) and he outshot me by 20-30 yards. So, I agree, more draw length is more important than more weight.
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That's really interesting. I wonder how much of that is dependent on the tiller of the bow? Most warbows are fairly stiff in the centre until right at the last few inches of a 32" draw. If the extra inch or two came from the tips as compared to the middle, would it have a different effect on the cast?
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That's really interesting. I wonder how much of that is dependent on the tiller of the bow? Most warbows are fairly stiff in the centre until right at the last few inches of a 32" draw. If the extra inch or two came from the tips as compared to the middle, would it have a different effect on the cast?
That's a good question, too. I know I tiller my warbows to only come around full compass right at full draw. I know that extra inch or two above 30" sure makes a difference in cast. As a result of this 'discovery', I'm now shooting 31" arrows. Given my stature, that's about it. I just can't get to 32".
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Perhaps with a bit of research and trial/error, it would be possible to adjust/refine a bow's tiller to give the same benefit in cast without having to be drawn a full 32". Obviously many archers just aren't built to draw 32", but most commercially available warbows are tillered the same, out to 32". I wonder if a bit of tweaking and redistributing of the working limb at full draw could make up the difference on a shorter draw? What a horribly wordy way of saying something simple.
Somebody who doesn't draw 32" won't get the full benefit of a warbow tillered to 32". So is there a way of keeping the cast the same, while allowing for a shorter draw?
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Perhaps with a bit of research and trial/error, it would be possible to adjust/refine a bow's tiller to give the same benefit in cast without having to be drawn a full 32". Obviously many archers just aren't built to draw 32", but most commercially available warbows are tillered the same, out to 32". I wonder if a bit of tweaking and redistributing of the working limb at full draw could make up the difference on a shorter draw? What a horribly wordy way of saying something simple.
Somebody who doesn't draw 32" won't get the full benefit of a warbow tillered to 32". So is there a way of keeping the cast the same, while allowing for a shorter draw?
IMO
No, it's simple arithmetic and physics!
Unless of course you resort to the scientific redesign of the bow as per Hickman which gave us the modern target bow, or change to a different bow style. (Arguably the Victorian tiller is more efficient but prob not so with heavier arrows like a warbow)
It's like saying can we adapt a fish to ride a bicycle... yeah, but it won't be fish anymore!
Just multiply the power stroke by half the draw weight. If the bow has a fairly linear force draw curve it's a good approximation. Just try it for a couple of different draw lengths.
Even at the same draw weight:-
Say you assume a 7" brace (measured from the back of the bow, (same as the draw length is measured) that gives a power stroke of 21" vs 25" for the 28 and 32" draws.... that's 19% increase evenat the same draw weight!
IMO
The whole concept of the handle not starting to bend until the last few inches of draw is just bonkers. The whole bow moves in unison all the time... ok it may not be visible to the naked eye, but the force is being applied to the whole limb over the whole draw. As the string angle changes the tips could possible get less leverage on them, but c'mon we are talking about longbows not horse bows with weird angles, bridges and changes in force draw curve.
Del
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I don't know Del... pics speak for themselves... First pic 3/4 draw and handle doing dick. Second pic full draw and handle bending. And that's a 30" draw. At 31" the handle does even more work.
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Can I go off at a tangent momentarily, and ask you what heads are those Adam? They look huge but that could just be the camera playing tricks.
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@adb... I bet if you compare pic 1 with a pic unstrung, you will see that there is some bend.
You can make your observation to any point on the limb... in pic 1... not so much. In pic 2 more...
Out of interest it would be easy to test on the tiller. Tape or glue a couple of thin rods, bits of cane/spills/whatever (say 12" long) sticking out from the back of the bow at 6" either side of center Taping to the side would be fairly secure). Measure between the tips. Brace it, measure again. Winch it back 6" at a time measuring each time.
Plot a graph of the results, post it on here and we can all marvel at at it, and someone can form high flown mathematical theories to prove what you have already measured ;)
Del
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@adb... I bet if you compare pic 1 with a pic unstrung, you will see that there is some bend.
You can your observation to any point on the limb... in pic 1... not so much. In pic 2 more...
Out of interest it would be easy to test on the tiller. Tape or glue a couple of thin rods, bits of cane/spills/whatever (say 12" long) sticking out from the back of the bow at 6" either side of center Taping to the side would be fairly secure). Measure between the tips. Brace it, measure again. Winch it back 6" at a time measuring each time.
Plot a graph of the results, post it on here and we can all marvel at at it, and someone can form high flown mathematical theories to prove what you have already measured ;)
Del
No thanks. Too busy making bows. :) I simply assess tiller and draw weight by looking at it. ;)
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Can I go off at a tangent momentarily, and ask you what heads are those Adam? They look huge but that could just be the camera playing tricks.
Type 16 bodkins. They might look a bit bigger because they're dirty.
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They look nicely made. I've got some Hector Cole 16s and they're tiny compared to yours. I much prefer the bigger ones. They your EWBS standards?
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No, they're kind of a livery hybrid. 60-70 grams. 30"-31", 1/2" tapering to 3/8", horn insert self nock of course. 7.5" feathers, but only front whipped, not fully wrapped. Some poplar, some oak, some birch.
In our group, we call them our 'light arrow.' Must be 60 grams and 30" minimum. Our 'heavy' arrow class is 80 grams minimum.
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Del's right you know Adb...... ;)
As for making a 32 draw bow the same efficency at a shorter draw the answer is to narrow it.
With regards to using different tillers well IMO it all just comes back to front profile taper. The corresponding thickness taper then determines how much bend it can take at any point along the limb without taking excessive set.....simples ;D
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That's curious. What does that mean for a typical warbow then? I've always made a self yew warbow front profile thick in the middle until about midlimb, with a slow taper towards the tips from there, then a rapid taper over the last 6" or so. The thickness taper is always straight, from handle area to tip.
That means that in theory the middle shouldnt bend while the tips bend excessively, which for a full compass bow is of course not the case...
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That's curious. What does that mean for a typical warbow then? I've always made a self yew warbow front profile thick in the middle until about midlimb, with a slow taper towards the tips from there, then a rapid taper over the last 6" or so. The thickness taper is always straight, from handle area to tip.
That means that in theory the middle shouldnt bend while the tips bend excessively, which for a full compass bow is of course not the case...
If you take a length of 1x1 slap a string on it and put it on the tiller you will see it bends mostly in the middle.
Parallel front profile near the grip doesn't mean it won't bend there.
All this "front profile equates to tiller" is (IMO) bunkum...
(Thickness is vastly more important^3 )
Del
(Scampers off to hide in my secret cat nest before Mike gets back.... ;) as this is our fave' argument >:D and I was getting really worried when Mike said 'Dels right')
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Sorry, Del... I respectfully disagree. Even tapers make even bends. That includes both front profiles and thickness profiles. This is something I've learned thru experience over the years.
Also, yes... bows are beginning to bend throughout their length from the beginning, but the amount they bend and where they're doing it will vary depending on tiller. That being said, I tiller my warbows so they don't fully bend in the middle until right at the end of full draw. Pictures don't lie.
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dont bother trying to teach yourself to draw a heavy bow to 28, start as you mean to go on and draw it to 32...
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I can draw to 30" no problem. 31" on a good day, up to 100-110#. However, 32" becomes a physical limit... my arms just aren't long enough.
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That's no excuse. Use that excuse in medieval England and you'd be whipped man!
Start hanging from window ledges. Twice a day, for an hour. You'll have longer arms in a week.
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That's no excuse. Use that excuse in medieval England and you'd be whipped man!
Start hanging from window ledges. Twice a day, for an hour. You'll have longer arms in a week.
;D ;D ;D
Seriously though, the vast majority of the arrows recovered from the Mary Rose were 30.5", so I think a 30" draw is very historically accurate.
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...so I think a 30" draw is very historically accurate.
Isn't that what they made these things for...people with short arms? >:D
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/cbergerman/640/Torture_Rack.jpg)
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WRACK HIM!!! Oooh... that looks nasty. :o
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I think I read somewhere, the idea that the longer arrows on the Mary Rose may have been 'Fire Arrows'.
This does make sense because in a naval battle fire arrows would have been a very effective weapon so they would have had plenty of them. The shaft of a fire arrow would be longer than normal for obvious reasons!
I know many Warbow archers today can draw 32 or 33in but I doubt that this was common in Medieval or Tudor times.
An arrow will travel farther if you draw that extra 1 or 2 inches but its easier to increase the strength of your bow rather than over extend yourself!
If a Tudor archer could draw a 180lb bow and be expected to loose a 100 arrows in a short period of time, drawing 32 or 33in would be remarkable.
I can draw a 130lb bow 32 inches but after about 5 or 6 arrows the lactic acid starts to build up and I'm lucky to finish the set of 12 at 30.5 inches which is my realistic draw length and I'm 6ft 1 inch tall!
Having said all that, we are all different and have different capabilities>
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I think I read somewhere, the idea that the longer arrows on the Mary Rose may have been 'Fire Arrows'.
This does make sense because in a naval battle fire arrows would have been a very effective weapon so they would have had plenty of them. The shaft of a fire arrow would be longer than normal for obvious reasons!
I know many Warbow archers today can draw 32 or 33in but I doubt that this was common in Medieval or Tudor times.
An arrow will travel farther if you draw that extra 1 or 2 inches but its easier to increase the strength of your bow rather than over extend yourself!
If a Tudor archer could draw a 180lb bow and be expected to loose a 100 arrows in a short period of time, drawing 32 or 33in would be remarkable.
I can draw a 130lb bow 32 inches but after about 5 or 6 arrows the lactic acid starts to build up and I'm lucky to finish the set of 12 at 30.5 inches which is my realistic draw length and I'm 6ft 1 inch tall!
Having said all that, we are all different and have different capabilities>
This makes so much sense.
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For me, being 6'5" helps up to a point. I have a 120# laminate that I can get back to 32 no problem. In fact I have some longer arrows (34") but I worry about shooting them at full draw for fear of damaging the bow. I bought the longer arrows, rather rashly it seems, for a 150# bow I just got. (Great bow by the way) I can't get it to 32" yet, maybe next season, but I doubt this year. Getting to my point, even though I'm tall and have long arms, and never felt "compressed" much by the 120, I can feel the 150 really squishing me up. I'm sure I'll get it to 32" but I'm not positive I'll ever get it back to 34. I guess that's OK, since I've seen the bow on a tiller at 34 and this will give me a little bit of a safety buffer.
As far as drawing goes, I tend to start out at about forehead level or so and really try to roll my elbows down so I can use my lat muscles as much as possible. I've seen the rolling loose quite a bit, but am worried I'd fall over and skewer myself if I tried it. I've found warming up is vital, or my left shoulder (The one which belongs to the arm which holds the bow) tends to be pretty sore.