Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: WillS on May 14, 2013, 05:58:02 pm
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Out of interest, what are people's opinions on the detrimental effects of string follow on heavy weight bows?
Does something 80#+ suffer in the same way as lightweight hunting/target bows when dealing with 3 or 4 inches of set / string follow? Or does the large weight increase counter the string follow and spit the arrow with enough force to not matter?
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80# is on the low end of "warbow", but 3-4 inches seems like quite a bit of set at any rate. I'd imagine that much would reduce cast no matter what weight you're shooting at, if the bow started off at zero to begin with.
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Yeah I used 80# as an absolute minimum (although the EWBS accept "warbows" from 70#@32). I'm just curious, as there must be a point where most wood can't help but take set as you get heavier.
Would 3 - 4 inches of string follow on a 170# bow still be excessive, or would you start to expect to see some string follow at this weight?
I know that for a lightweight / target bow most people like to keep it flat, or reflexed as the speed is fairly vital, but when dealing with distance/clout/roving shoots as with a warbow, does reduced cast make a whole heap of difference at a high draw-weight?
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Ooo, well, my personal opinion is that cast is one of the most important things in determining how useful a warbow is, and anything which reduces it is pretty much a bad thing. Regarding a 170#er, I can't say from personal experience, I've never drawn one that heavy. My gut reaction is that it's still quite a lot of set and might indicate one of a couple of issues with the bow. Remember that brace height is often between five and six inches, so you're losing a fair amount...in my inexpert opinion. They're not sniper rifles, after all, so they need to be able to cover a fairly broad area as far away as possible.
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Feel free to ignore these musings...
My old Yew bow has been severly over stressed. It's only 70" long and has been over drawn from it's 28" to 31". It has a load of set but still throws an arrow a good way. It was originally 75# but is now 68#, it will still throw a heavyish arrow past the 180 yard clout.
I'd guess the main reason for set is making a bow too short for it's draw weight/draw length.
I've no experience over 90#
I also suspect there are problems caused by building high D section Victorian style bows at over heavy weights rather than a more square/circular profile as seen on the Mary Rose bows
Big problem of course is finding decent wood to make 'em in the first place. I s'pose the answer is make bows that fit the wood, but it's not always apparent what the qualities of the wood are initially.
Del
(PS I assume you are mainly talikng 'set' which is permanent, rather than 'string follow' which is generally taken to be the temporary curve whcih relaxes out after several hours unstrung.
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Set is set, and will reduce cast regardless of draw weight. Set is caused by over stressed limbs. A little bit of set (about 1") is good... it lets you know your limbs are not over built and too heavy. 3-4" of set will rob cast. I have many warbows, but one I just finished is a maple backed yew, 90#@30" with <1" of set. I have an older tri-lam warbow, hickory, bamboo, osage... 100#@30" with 4" of set. They both have a physical weight within a few grams of each other, but the yew bow consistently outshoots the tri-lam. I attribute that to set.
Steve Stratton of DIY Archery in the UK has made some very heavy self yew warbows with zero set. I believe he posted one here that was 160#, and it was pipe straight unstrung. Do a search... you'll find it.
But, as Del mentioned, are you talking set, or string follow?
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Thanks Del and Adb for posting, always good to hear from guys who have experience in this stuff!
Del, its good to know that your yew bow still chucks 'em out, makes me feel slightly better.
The reason I ask is because my two "best" yew bows both have a large amount of set. By best I mean they came out as I wanted, despite lots of trouble! I think the reason they have so much set with VERY little shooting (the bow i posted recently on here is pushing about 2-3 inches of set/string follow and has never been shot!) is down to my impatience. They came from the same tree and the wood had been cut almost a year and half ago, and left outside. When compared to the 3 - 5 years mentioned for good yew bows, thats nothing!
At least, i hope thats why, as compared to bad tillering or design. It may also be down to the wood quality (although the rings are dense) or too much heat straightening etc. I haven't made enough bows yet to blame anything but my lack of experience at this stage though.
Adb, I do remember seeing that, and I think it must be both Steve's skill and the fantastic quality Italian yew he uses for those monster bows that keeps the set down.
I guess I sort of wanted to be reassured that the set I've ended up with wouldn't be too detrimental, but I think I knew the answer really! Just adds more motivation to get the next bow even better!
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Steve Stratton of DIY Archery in the UK has made some very heavy self yew warbows with zero set. I believe he posted one here that was 160#, and it was pipe straight unstrung. Do a search... you'll find it.
But, as Del mentioned, are you talking set, or string follow?
This one?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=9817.0
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Steve Stratton of DIY Archery in the UK has made some very heavy self yew warbows with zero set. I believe he posted one here that was 160#, and it was pipe straight unstrung. Do a search... you'll find it.
But, as Del mentioned, are you talking set, or string follow?
This one?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=9817.0
Yup... that's the one.
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Steve Stratton of DIY Archery in the UK has made some very heavy self yew warbows with zero set. I believe he posted one here that was 160#, and it was pipe straight unstrung. Do a search... you'll find it.
But, as Del mentioned, are you talking set, or string follow?
This one?
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=9817.0
Yup... that's the one.
I still can't get over how beautiful that bow is...
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84" long, 82 rings per inch, seasoned Italian yew, Steve Stratton's experience... One day! Until then, I think I'll be satisfied with my 72", 40 rpi, unseasoned English yew with no experience! I should be grateful the bow didn't explode rather than fussing over some set!
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Yeah that's a typical bow from Steve! My experience is that some staves will take a set no matter how quickly/carefully you tiller them, but some, especially those that started with a slight natural reflex will stay straight or even retain a slight reflex, even after shooting them for years. There are a lot of factors to take into account such as how long the stave has been seasoned, what it's moisture content is, ring count, original stave dimensions etc. I have made a few bows with no set - my most recent was only 63" or so long but tillered out to 33" (120lbs) and had no set.
Dave
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That's quite an achievement. Was it yew? How long was it seasoned for before starting?
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84" long, 82 rings per inch, seasoned Italian yew, Steve Stratton's experience... One day! Until then, I think I'll be satisfied with my 72", 40 rpi, unseasoned English yew with no experience! I should be grateful the bow didn't explode rather than fussing over some set!
Yup 84" there's the clue.
If you scale that down as a length/draw your 72" bow would be drawing 72.4" and at that draw it may well have had no set.
Ok I realise, a simple scaling prob' isn't geometrically exact, but it gives an idea.
Bottom line, you don't get 'owt for n'owt
Del
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Hi WillS, yes the bow was Italian yew, 3 year seasoned. I have to say that it came from a very dense, very narrow stave, with natural recurve, hence growth rings were very curved; maybe this also helps resist a set.
Dave
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Hi WillS, yes the bow was Italian yew, 3 year seasoned. I have to say that it came from a very dense, very narrow stave, with natural recurve,
Ahem.
Cough.
Got any more?
Cough.
Seriously though, that sounds like a dream piece of wood. I'm sure it was your skill as well though, as I guess most of us know that it's surprisingly easy to take a fantastic piece of wood and make a poor bow if handled badly...
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Yeah that's a typical bow from Steve! My experience is that some staves will take a set no matter how quickly/carefully you tiller them, but some, especially those that started with a slight natural reflex will stay straight or even retain a slight reflex, even after shooting them for years. There are a lot of factors to take into account such as how long the stave has been seasoned, what it's moisture content is, ring count, original stave dimensions etc. I have made a few bows with no set - my most recent was only 63" or so long but tillered out to 33" (120lbs) and had no set.
Dave
You made a 63" bow, 120#@33"??? with no set. Very bold claim. Do you have any pictures? Sorry... I have a hard time believing you without pictures to back this up!
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I would believe David above anyone if he said he was able to do it.
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:-X
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I tell a lie, the bow was 110lbs, 73.4" nock to nock
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll219/Davepim/IMGP0919.jpg)
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll219/Davepim/bow_zpse5eaefa7.jpg)
And here is a link to a video of it being shot
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Davepim/media/04Nov2012_zpsc6bb38bb.mp4.html (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/Davepim/media/04Nov2012_zpsc6bb38bb.mp4.html)
Some of you may notice that it is a bit stiff in the upper limb; I have since re-tillered to correct this, but the bow is just as straight. I don't have the bow lined up against a measure, so you will just have to take my word for it about its length.
Cheers, Dave
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Nice video. I like the economical style, no excess leaping about.
We'll happilly take your word for the length, now it's increased by 10" ;)
Great bow, nice tiller (yes I did agree on the stiff top limb)
Del
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Correct Del, I'd meant to post it originally as 73" not 63" - a slip of the keys and no wonder adb was a bit doubtful! ;) - the "lie" was the draw-weight which was 110 not 120, looking back on it! :-[ And by the way that is Glennan Carnie, not me shooting the bow, as he was the customer.
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Glennan is really going for that, is this a new one you made him? I am sure I would have seen it by now, if it is new I hope to see it at Swindon, really spits them out.
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Late in the year I'll be making a 100# @32" for someone. My dilema is should I train myself up to shoot it? (just a few shots will do me) It's prob going to be my last chance to go over 100# as I'm not getting any younger, mind I don't mant to screw up my elbows and knuckles. (the shoulders can take it no prob). Shot 90# at 28" over a year ago, and that was tough, but the 100# at 32" will prob be about the same as that one at 28"... it's just a matter of getting over the top and into the bow for the last few inches... piece of cake ::) ;)
Del
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This thread is making me want to successfully complete my goal of making a yew warbow pushing 100# more than ever. I so badly want to be able to join the EWBS using a bow I've made myself! I'm only 24 though, so I've got time... Patience, patience...
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Start stockpiling materials now Will, you will soon struggle to get anything good. And making bows over 100/110 is a different ball game but you should be able to do it, their are plenty in the EWBS that will help.
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Start stockpiling materials now Will, you will soon struggle to get anything good. And making bows over 100/110 is a different ball game but you should be able to do it, their are plenty in the EWBS that will help.
Thanks Ian, this forum alone is so packed with people happy and ready to help that I know I'll be there soon. My recent knotty twisted yew bow came out at 80ish so I'm not a million miles away. I just ordered myself an Italian yew stave as well, so at some point in the next few years I'll be tackling that!
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This thread is making me want to successfully complete my goal of making a yew warbow pushing 100# more than ever. I so badly want to be able to join the EWBS using a bow I've made myself! I'm only 24 though, so I've got time... Patience, patience...
Twenty Four! I can't even remember that far back :-[ ;)
Del
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Glennan is really going for that, is this a new one you made him? I am sure I would have seen it by now, if it is new I hope to see it at Swindon, really spits them out.
Actually Ian, it was for him, but he thought that it was a bit short; at 73" it may not be acceptable for the MR class! :( I have kept it for me and made him another - you'll see them in Swindon for sure.
Dave
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Glennan is really going for that, is this a new one you made him? I am sure I would have seen it by now, if it is new I hope to see it at Swindon, really spits them out.
Actually Ian, it was for him, but he thought that it was a bit short; at 73" it may not be acceptable for the MR class! :( I have kept it for me and made him another - you'll see them in Swindon for sure.
Dave
That's a real pity Dave as that is a very fine bow!! I remember seeing it when you first made it but in Glennan's hands you can really see how small it is! Again a pity about that because it looks like it is capable of some impressive distances! Have either of you shot it for them anyways? I would be very keen to know! Beautiful bend, nearly makes me cringe to see how far the bend extends! heh heh lovely mate!
-Jake
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Thanks Del and
I think the reason they have so much set with VERY little shooting (the bow i posted recently on here is pushing about 2-3 inches of set/string follow and has never been shot!) is down to my impatience. They came from the same tree and the wood had been cut almost a year and half ago, and left outside.
Therein lays your majority problem...the moisture content of your wood is too high if it was left outdoors to season in the u.k. .....lots of off topic rambling going on here....make sure your wood is stored in 40-50% relative humidity if you can...and don't start bending it till its at the correct moisture content...even if you have a high ring count super dense naturally reflexed perfect piece of wood with too high of moisture content it'll still turn into a set stricken bow even if your design and tiller is spot on...which is another consideration...design is the ace...as long as your wood is properly dry and properly designed,you then should be able to tiller it and have a "healthy" belly to your bow that isn't set stricken no matter the weight it pulls
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Thanks for the tips! I definitely agree - impatience when seasoning staves is my downfall. I only got into bowyery last year, and having a lovely yew stave sitting there looking at me is just too much to take! I get excited by the prospect of working it, and that ends up resulting in a low performance bow from what is probably a very good stave!
For what its worth, I shot Ol' Setty on Saturday and it was spitting heavy arrows out like no other bow I've made before, so the prospect of doing it with a properly, carefully seasoned stave is pretty exciting!
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Glennan is really going for that, is this a new one you made him? I am sure I would have seen it by now, if it is new I hope to see it at Swindon, really spits them out.
Actually Ian, it was for him, but he thought that it was a bit short; at 73" it may not be acceptable for the MR class! :( I have kept it for me and made him another - you'll see them in Swindon for sure.
Dave
That's a real pity Dave as that is a very fine bow!! I remember seeing it when you first made it but in Glennan's hands you can really see how small it is! Again a pity about that because it looks like it is capable of some impressive distances! Have either of you shot it for them anyways? I would be very keen to know! Beautiful bend, nearly makes me cringe to see how far the bend extends! heh heh lovely mate!
-Jake
Hi jake, well I plan to try this out for distance next weekend :) However, I've barely touched a bow this year; been too busy making them for other people.
Dave
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Thanks for the tips! I definitely agree - impatience when seasoning staves is my downfall.
+1
I have found it is a good idea to store staves inside.
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All my staves are stored inside. It doesn't speed up seasoning time when you're talking about numerous years with yew, unfortunately!
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All my staves are stored inside. It doesn't speed up seasoning time when you're talking about numerous years with yew, unfortunately!
no, but with white woods, it keeps them from becoming wet.