Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: orangputihkgu on March 03, 2013, 11:08:11 am
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Hello warbow community!
Looking for a Warbow I came across the Trilam Warbow Hickory/Greenheart/Hickory 125-130lbs@32" from the bowyer Fairbow in NL.
Having found until then lams in general with a tropical hardwood as bellywood I am curious to know how Hickory stands up to the belly job, especially at a high draw weight (125-130lbs)?
And maybe some one could explain the effect of the Greenheart wood in the core on the performance of the bow? Is the core in this bow for speed or to support the belly?
Thanks and Cheers.......CHRIS
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Well in my recent experiences, it seems to do great really, and take very little set, almost none. And that is without heat treating it.
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I'm not really fond of Fairbow. I'm from the Netherlands and I've seen their bows numerous times. The company does make some awesome bows (for some less than awesome prices in this higher quality), but to me it's clear they are clearly commercialized. That is not wrong in itself, but it shows off in most of their bows. As a craftsman myself, I can easily see where they save time and money in their productions process; where they take shortcuts. I don't want to bring the company down, since they're some good folks making very decent bows, but I do have some points of critique on their hickory backed hickory warbows.
- The glue lines in the laminated bows are less than perfect. Sometimes even terrible, but apparently these bows hold up just fine! (Or they get replaced as warranty.) The epoxy must be a good one, but they're very secretive about the type or brand of glue they use. I do know they use a toothing plane for prepping most glue surfaces, which causes large gaps between the laminations. Ugly in my opinion, but it appears to do no harm to the bows functionality.
- I don't like the horn tips they make. It sure is a matter of taste, but it really looks like "a pile of scat was deposited on top of the bow" (I quote a master bowyer here). Functional, sure, but those horn nocks are far from graceful.
- The company uses a lot of hickory for their bows. That's because this wood can withstand grain violations and faulty tiller like no other wood can. They use it for so many types of bows, that I'm sometimes bewildered by the design they force this hickory in. Hickory is knows to fare best in a dry climate so they woods EMC does not get too high. Our country if famous for its water - equals high humidity. Hickory is also famous for its high tensile strength, but relatively low compression strength. This means a trapped back is often smart in hickory. Yet this company forces the hickory into a flat back and deeeeeeply crowned belly! As a result, virtually all their hickory bellied bows have at LEAST 2 (more often 3) inches of set! That is when they're new. Imagine what happens often the bows have been used for some time. It can only get worse. This deeply crowned belly just isn't suited for hickory, but I could not tell that to them. They simply waved my ignorance away.
This warbow is not a bad bow at all. If you like the appearance of the glue lines, tip overlays and leather handle, you'll certainly not be disappointed. However, my point of critique is the choice of hickory for a deeply crowned belly. You have to know that this bow will take 2½ or 3" of set over times, which robs cast enormously. The bow may draw the listed 125# in the end, but it performs not as good as a 125# bow could do. It's a reliable bow that will not break, and it can handle some abuse. But it's not the best shooter. To that end, they sell their grossly overbuild $1,000 Italian yew warbows...
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As a side not, this message board is meant for bowyers - not buyers. We would like to help you in making a bow, rather than buying a bow. So our communal answer will and should be: save your money on that bow and go make you own! Your first bow won't be such a heavy warbow, but your third or fourth bow could seriously be over 100#. There's nothing more rewarding than shooting a bow you've made yourself!
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I think a bow can have 2 1/2" string follow and still shoot great. 3" can be a bit much of course, but on a higher weight longer bow, it seems not to matter as much as long as string tension is good at brace. It seems that way to me sometimes anyway. Sometimes I will favor a bow with almost 3" string follow over a bow with reflex, depending on how it shoots and performs, how it draws, handshock, etc. I have also heard about hickorys compression weakness. But this fact just doesn't seem to wanna present itself to me? I just made a nice and deep hickory bow 74 3/4" ntn and maybe 110 or 120 at 32", and yet it has failed to take more than 1/4" set I think? And that is after letting it sit on a static tiller tree to view the tiller and take pictures, etc. Which usually kills bows when I do it. :) ANd no heat treating at all. I have also heard of silver maples compression weakness. One thing I have also done is make heavier weight silver maple longbows, without compression problems or excessive set. Quite the contrary, in fact they have been some nice shooting bows. Where I have heard (or read, I guess) other people talking about how they have tried to make silver maple flatbows many times and just ended up with chrysals and belly failure. What this is making me think is that the extra length of a longbow, 74" to 78", when compared to the typical length people will usually make a flat bow, 60" - 68", might make a bigger difference than you think with lessening the stress on the belly and the bow, despite the deep cross section. The silver maple longbows I have made have been around 70" to 78" ntn.
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Hickory, greenheart , hickory is a terrible combination in my opion.
Just to qualify - i've made a few 100 elb's out of many different combinations of wood.
Greenheart is a much under used bellywood. Last year I found a supplier of large sections of greenheart and after plenty of experimenting I will say it's as good as ipe in compression. It will make any draw weight bow you want, take little set even when narrower and sands up a dream.
Hickory here in humid,damp England is pretty lame in compression.
I haven't seen any of these bows/staves from this company but I wiull say that Darksoul knows what he is talking about and is trying to save you from wasting your money on an inferior product.
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Toomanyknots - a bow with 21/2 - 3 inches of set has been over-strained...simple! It may be pleasant to shoot but it sure won't be great (compared to what it could have been!).
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Toomanyknots - a bow with 21/2 - 3 inches of set has been over-strained...simple! It may be pleasant to shoot but it sure won't be great (compared to what it could have been!).
Mike, 3" yes, but just because a bow has 2" of set doesn't mean it has been over strained. Anything under 2" is fine. With better woods it may of course, but with woods like red oak, you can easily get 2" set on a new bow with a typical flatbow design. I have had alot of great shooters with 2" set, out shoot reflexed osage bows of the same specs. I think people are becoming "set snobs" anymore, :). Not that thats such a horrible thing in itself, just sharing some thoughts.
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Sorry but i'll have to disagree 2 inch of set does mean i'st been overstrained ;) and you started off by saying 2 1/2...thats a 25% discrepancy. Red oak just like ash etc can be made into a low set bow. Look at the properties of the wood and design the bow accordingly....my hint is compression strength verus tension strength...... ;)
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ahh, just say you intentionally gave it "deflex" they wont know the difference ::)
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Sorry but i'll have to disagree 2 inch of set does mean i'st been overstrained ;) and you started off by saying 2 1/2...thats a 25% discrepancy.
What I said, to quote myself, was that a bow can have 2 1/2" string follow and still shoot great which is obviously true and does not need to, nor can it be argued with to any degree. ;) Especially if said bow was made with a deflexed stave to begin with. Mike, I admire your work like a little girl admires justin bieber, ;D, but you are wrong here, and I think you are being a bit of a snob. Anything under 2" is just fine. Saying a bow with 2" string follow is always over strained reminds me of one of those people that think a guitar is ruined because it has a couple marks below the sound hole from playing... Thats what happens to a guitar when you play it!, you don't buy a 1000 dollar guitar to look at it! Set is what happens to bows that get used, you don't build a bow to look at the pretty unbraced profile, do you?
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Toomanyknots - I am totally with Mike on this one, too many bowyers like to disguise bad bow making as normal; 3" of set is really beyond normal, you should be aiming for 1" maybe 1.5". When you speak of deflexed staves we don't consider that set, only the amount of follow the bow has taken after being tillered is counted, that isn't to say a low set, deflexed bow will shoot well though.
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I feel it is worth pointing out, as I understand, that under Dutch law a commercial bow must be tillered to 2" over the stated draw length, therefor the bow in question has been drawn to 34" which is a looong way back. This would make for more set but ensure a very safe bow.
I'm I right DarkSoul?
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Toomanyknots - I am totally with Mike on this one, too many bowyers like to disguise bad bow making as normal; 3" of set is really beyond normal, you should be aiming for 1" maybe 1.5". When you speak of deflexed staves we don't consider that set, only the amount of follow the bow has taken after being tillered is counted, that isn't to say a low set, deflexed bow will shoot well though.
I am not in anyway referring to poor craftsmanship as normal or acceptable. I did not hear anyone mention the difference between string follow and set in this thread, I said string follow which I took to be understood as string follow. Mike said set which I take to be understood as set.
EDIT: And I don't have any problem calling a bow, especially hickory which in my opinion doesn't seem to be too hard to get a bow with zero follow out of in high weights even, (although I am aware of hickorys legendary compression weakness... although I am sure everyone would rather take a piece of hickory over red oak anyday, ;) ),... I don't have any problems calling a such a bow over strained. Yes 3" is alot of string follow. I was just trying to put things in perspective, and share some related thoughts I have on the subject, I don't give a hoot about fairbow either way, nor do I have any personal knowledge if they're bows are quality or not. ...But basically in regards to wooden bows, set happens. String follow happens. New bows have less of it. Old bows have more of it. Anything under 2" is fine.
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I feel it is worth pointing out, as I understand, that under Dutch law a commercial bow must be tillered to 2" over the stated draw length, therefor the bow in question has been drawn to 34" which is a looong way back. This would make for more set but ensure a very safe bow.
I'm I right DarkSoul?
Hm, I'm not aware of any actual laws regarding hand bows. There is some jurisdiction on crossbows, but I THINK there is nothing in Dutch law about hand bows. I could be mistaken here, but I've never heard of that 2" over tillered before. I do know that Fairbow tillers her bows to a bit more than the listed drawlength, which I can relate to in order to ensure a durable bow. Most of their bows are listed as for instance 60#@28", max draw 70#@30". They won't prefer to sell such a bow to someone with a true 30" drawlength, but it is a guarantee that the bow was tillered and pulled all the way to 30" with success.
I'm still not sure whether this is an actual law, or just a choice made by the company.
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I can't imagine any country bothering to legislate about the tillering of bows.
Of course all my bows are CE marked O:) and meet all EU requirements for electromagnetic interference and susceptibility ;)
Del
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I haven't read everything above.
My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood.
I like the tri lam design for a few reasons. A major one is that it is efficient use of wood. Also it can be pretty. It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.
The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.
I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.
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I haven't read everything above.
My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood.
I like the tri lam design for a few reasons. A major one is that it is efficient use of wood. Also it can be pretty. It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.
The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.
I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.
Gluelines do not affect stiffness. The concept is really nothing more than adding a pretty colour!.....at least the way most folks do things.
For a tri-lam elb then go for a 1/4 thick hickory backing a core of 1/16th to 1/8th then adda belly. 7/8ths thick at the handle with any dense wood for upto 60 lbs.
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I haven't read everything above.
My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood.
I like the tri lam design for a few reasons. A major one is that it is efficient use of wood. Also it can be pretty. It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.
The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.
I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.
Gluelines do not affect stiffness. The concept is really nothing more than adding a pretty colour!.....at least the way most folks do things.
For a tri-lam elb then go for a 1/4 thick hickory backing a core of 1/16th to 1/8th then adda belly. 7/8ths thick at the handle with any dense wood for upto 60 lbs.
I have also heard from other bowyers that the glue lines/laminates add stiffness, which can reduce limb mass in bows. Mike, can you explain why it is that this is said to be, and why it is not true? I honestly would like to know, and honestly haven't wrapped my head around that yet. If it is not true, than I cannot see any other benefit from adding a strip of ipe between hickory and osage. Osage and ipe are both dense woods that are great in compression. You often see them being used as cores, as well as bellys. I think this is funny, as you could easily switch them around, for what I would think would have to be the same effect? Logically, I would think the best use of a core would be a light but dependable and strong wood, that would reduce the weight of the limbs, but provide a good space between the outer back and belly, which are under the most stresses. I have always thought that this was the main concept in hornbow construction, seeing as lighter woods like mulberry were favored alot of the time, as well as maple. I have also heard that there is little reason to go over an eighth of an inch thick with a hickory backing? It seems to me, when researching laminate elb construction, there can be alot of conflicting information out there, and not a ton of thorough explanation. My favorite sources of info so far have been old out of print books found online.
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So this company in NL sounds like a..Dutch Rudderbows. LOL hahaha. Their methods sound similar, the planing of lams, the glue joints. Functional bows no doubt.
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Agree to dissagree about disagreeing for disagreeing sake Mike Schwick.
1) I've read it in literature printed by far better Bowyers than myself.
2) the folks at Rudder bows who were WAY instrumental in gettingme started in this madness stated as much.
3) I've experienced.
But don't take my word for it. Take three pieces of wood 1/8" thick by some length and bend them as a bundle then glue them togeather and bend them again.
Debate solved. >:D
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Oh, BTW there is connection between Faire Bow and Rudder Bows.
Commercialization is not a bad thing . . . exactly. I have no problem with a guy making a standard range of products to serve a market demand. The standardizing helps with throughput, efficient use of materials and keeping price down which increases sales. Any market will have products of all different price ranges and qualities. Not every boater can afford or wants a Chriss Craft.
Others are Richard Head and Bickerstaff.
Just what is wrong with a guy, especially in the Netherlands with their taxes, making a living at his craft however he needs to? Isn't that what free markets and innovation are all about? Sure we wouldn't be against that (Cough~ socialist liberal) >:D
Look at Konrad Voegelle. This guy only makes two kinds of bows though they come in bamboo backed or self bows. That is it. That is what he knows works and he can confidantly make with some modicome of efficiency.
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But don't take my word for it. Take three pieces of wood 1/8" thick by some length and bend them as a bundle then glue them togeather and bend them again.
Debate solved. >:D
WALOOB!
Clamp 'em together by any method, nails, bolts, rivets. even string if the surfaces are prepared correctly. And they will be stiffer.
It's the change in dimension that makes it stiffer. Not the glue.
The fair comparison is glue 3 strips of 1/8" together and compare it with a piece of 3/8" solid timber unglued.
I sincerely hope you were joking (presumably the " >:D" means you were).
Sorry if this post was unecessary, but there I wouldn't want some innocent newbie taking you seriously.
Del
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I was very tempted to get some doubled sided tape and see if it holds a lam together, not for any bending test just to see what happens.
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No one got my Dutch rudder joke. Or they stayed silent. No worries, ill keep it clean from henceforth. Pleased to report again today my rudder warbow still hasn't broken after all I've done to it. We shall see....
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I haven't read everything above.
My thoughts is that Hickory is an excelent wood.
I like the tri lam design for a few reasons. A major one is that it is efficient use of wood. Also it can be pretty. It takes more technical plannig in the early design and layout stages.
The concept is great because you gain alot of strength from the gluelines which helps reduce limb weight.
I find trilam ELB's difficult to make and still get the right look because of the above.
Gluelines do not affect stiffness. The concept is really nothing more than adding a pretty colour!.....at least the way most folks do things.
For a tri-lam elb then go for a 1/4 thick hickory backing a core of 1/16th to 1/8th then adda belly. 7/8ths thick at the handle with any dense wood for upto 60 lbs.
I have also heard from other bowyers that the glue lines/laminates add stiffness, which can reduce limb mass in bows. Mike, can you explain why it is that this is said to be, and why it is not true? I honestly would like to know, and honestly haven't wrapped my head around that yet. If it is not true, than I cannot see any other benefit from adding a strip of ipe between hickory and osage. Osage and ipe are both dense woods that are great in compression. You often see them being used as cores, as well as bellys. I think this is funny, as you could easily switch them around, for what I would think would have to be the same effect? Logically, I would think the best use of a core would be a light but dependable and strong wood, that would reduce the weight of the limbs, but provide a good space between the outer back and belly, which are under the most stresses. I have always thought that this was the main concept in hornbow construction, seeing as lighter woods like mulberry were favored alot of the time, as well as maple. I have also heard that there is little reason to go over an eighth of an inch thick with a hickory backing? It seems to me, when researching laminate elb construction, there can be alot of conflicting information out there, and not a ton of thorough explanation. My favorite sources of info so far have been old out of print books found online.
Just thought I would resurrect this thread, as I never got a answer regarding glue lines adding stiffness? (unless it was a pm that I forgot about, :o lol )
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Hi
The Greenheart that Fairbow is selling is Ipe. So the warbow is Hickory/Ipe/Hickory.
Greetings
Andi
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Toomanyknots - i'm happy to tell anyone all I know about making elb's. ;) after all it won't take too long.....
Gluelines in themselves add no real stiffness. The glueline is very thin and although most glues are stiff when dry they are forming a tiny percentage of the total thickness therefore have a tiny affect on the stiffness. If I understood what Prairiebowyer said then 3 x 1/8th thick lams aren't very stiff by themselves when un-glued yet they become a lot stiffer when glued together...well of course they do they are now 3 times thicker! That's not the gluelines it's the huge change in thickness.
Regarding reducing limb mass because of adding gluelines - most glues are pretty darn dense so adding more glue will actually raise the physical weight.
I personally don't use heavy dense woods for cores unless somebody specifically wants a certain combination. My favourite core wood is maple due to it's medium density and fantastic gluing properties and it's diffuse porous.
I have found that just shy of 1/4 hickory backing works best will dense tropicals like ipe. This is after making a few hundered of them with every thickness of backing tried...but i'm still not 100% sure why.
The core in a hornbow isn't really to lower limb weight but to work as a) A form to glue the horn to b) give the limbs the correct shape as it's stiffer than horn or sinew c) allow the shaping of the kasans/tips etc. Maple is the best wood for hornbow cores as well!
The one way of making gluelines 'work' is the principle of perry reflexing. I'm still experimenting with gluing up 2 lams at a time and adding reflex with each glue-up...but it's a bit of a pain. End-grain cores are another avenue with potential but i'll leave that upto you to figure out. ;)
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Making tri-lam ELBs (my speciality) allows me to make more bows with less wood. The glue lines do not add stiffness per say. Remember, wood which is twice as wide is twice as strong, but wood which is twice as thick is eight times as strong.
The glue I use (TB3) happens at the molecular level. A good glue line shouldn't be a line at all... it should just look like the wood is touching each other. Good glue lines are all about proper wood surface prep, and consistent clamping pressure.
Gluing multiple layers mostly allows me to optimize the wood combinations and thicknesses. Plus, it provides the bonus of looking nice using wood colors with contrast. What mikekeswick has said above is very correct. Maple is excellent bow wood... one of my favourites. I do tend to use belly type compressive woods for my cores, but I have also used tension strong woods like bamboo as well.
There is also some physics going on at glue lines, which I don't fully understand. Right at the glue line itself is a neutral plane, where there is neither tension nor compression forces. If you have a tri-lam, there are two neutral planes, and I'm not sure if this is better than one with a backed bow. Something to research, I suppose. I have spoken with and spent time with some very knowledgeable bowyers like Pip Bickerstaffe in the UK, and there must be something to his willingness to make nothing but multiple layered ELBs, otherwise he wouldn't bother with the extra work.
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Thank you Mike and Abd for the thorough replies, I appreciate it, ;D.